Scriptures Inspired for the L. Ray Smith Followers
76I Beseech Born-Again, Spirit-Filled Brethren
God has burdened me with the L. Ray Smith followers, and if I be called to somehow share the truth with them, if it be possible to penetrate the spirit at work, I praise God with all my heart. This hub is to provide scripture inspired as the Spirit leads to shew these that THEY WILL NOT BE SAVED THROUGH FIRE AFTER DEATH.
First of all, we must expose the root of L. Ray Smith. There was/is a hubber on HubPages called "yes2truth" who was an avid follower of this man's teaching, yet I recently stumbled upon a web-posting written by him back in March 2006 called "L. Ray Smith - The Legalist Blasphemer!" in which he states, and I quote, "Myself, like old Ray, having once been a member of Herbert W. Armstrongs's Judaising cult, and upon stumbling across ('stumbling' being a very relevant word here) L. Ray Smith's website and forum, I instantly related to his no nonsense style of preaching/teaching, which in itself is fine, and therein found much Truth being taught, but then, Hello!? I've been here before haven't I? Yes of course I had and there it was, all the time, that old stumbling block of legalism."
Now, I've already exposed Armstrongism in my hub A False Prophet of the Last Days? Another name for this cult is the Worldwide Church of God.
See, the Lord doesn't concern Himself with whether or not these people BELIEVE in HELL. Those who do not accept the Lord Jesus Christ as his/her personal Lord and SAVIOR will indeed have their eyes opened on that Day. The LORD, our Lord is only concerned with the salvation of these who will receive it, and the TRUTH shall set them FREE, AMEN.
To first get a background on their belief system, please preface by reading my hub REFUTE of SALVATION for ALL Doctrine before you pray and ask the Spirit for guidance. This is going to be a HUB OF WARFARE, and those called to post I ask to keep with us, so I don't feel like David with Goliath!! I need my brothers and sisters in the Lord that are called to this purpose to love this group together (LOVE IS THE POWER OF GOD). AMEN. I will continue to update this hub with scriptures should the Lord continue to give them to me for them.
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, should you be led to add inspired scripture to the comments here to prove to these followers that there truly is no salvation through fire after death, please do so. The Lord's children, the saints stand united in Jesus' Name. Where two or more agree as touching any one thing, the Lord will do it. AMEN.
Inspired by the Holy Spirit for YOU
Let's look at what happens to the spirit of man when he dies:
Ecclesiastes 3:20-21 state "All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust. Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth?"
Now, since you don't believe in ETERNAL, let's read just three passages that show us we live after physical death for eternity (forever, not just an age or ages):
Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.… Jesus instructed them, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead." (Matthew 17:1-9) I thought Moses and Elijah were DEAD?
1 Corinthians 15:52 "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." Imperishable means we will never decompose (die) ~ even in the Lake of Fire.
John 11:25-26 "Jesus said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?'"
Jesus didn't come to judge the world, right?
John 12:47 "And if anyone hears My sayings, and does NOT keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world" [Now, you might think there is no judgment and that ALL will be saved? Don't let the Devil stop you with just this verse....you must read on:]
John 12:48-49 "He who rejects Me, and does NOT receive my sayings, has ONE WHO JUDGES HIM; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me commandment, what to say, and what to speak."
Acts 17:30-31 “Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man [Jesus] whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather FEAR HIM which is able to DESTROY BOTH SOUL and BODY in HELL (geenna-Lake of Fire)." Now, since God is love, we are not to fear Him? Look up how many scriptures say to "fear God" as that of having respect. This scripture doesn't say our soul will be saved through geenna, but DESTROYED. He is an awesome God!
Romans 2:5-6 "But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to every man according to his deeds."
Matthew 25:41 ""Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Let's witness the judgments of the Father:
Isaiah 47:14-15 "Behold, they have become like stubble, Fire burns them; They cannot deliver themselves from the power of the flame; There will be no coal to warm by, Nor a fire to sit before! So have those become to you with whom you have labored, Who have trafficked with you from your youth; Each has wandered in his own way. There is none to save you.
Jer 6:29-30 "The bellows blow fiercely, the lead is consumed by the fire; In vain the refining goes on, But the wicked are not separated. They call them rejected silver, Because the LORD has rejected them.
Ezekiel 18:23-28 "'Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,' declares the Lord GOD, 'Rather than that he should turn from his ways and live? But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed; for them he will die.
"Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?
"When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die. Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life. Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
"But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?
"'Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,' declares the Lord GOD. 'Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
"'For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,' declares the Lord GOD. 'Therefore, repent and live.'"
Let's now go back to the New Testament
John 17:9 "I ask on their behalf; I do NOT ask on behalf of the WORLD, but of those whom Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine."
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 “For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed-- for our testimony to you was believed.”
2 Peter 2:6 and 9 "And if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly thereafter; then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment.
2 Peter 3:7 "But the present heavens and earth by His word are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men."
1 John 5:5 "And who is the one who overcomes the world, but he (YOU) who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"
Acts 13:46 "Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles."
Every Tongue Confess is NOT Salvation
Philippians 2:10-11 first states "that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE SHOULD BOW, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
James 2:19 states "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder."
Matthew 8:29 the demons named Legion confess, "And they cried out, saying, 'What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?'" The word "torment" is "torture".
1 Corinthians 13:5 states that Love does not seek its own way. While it's God's desire that all should be saved, He will not force anyone to be saved through judgment or any other means. God is love and love does not force its own way.
Unless the Father Draws (Drags) Him?
John 6:44 states, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." Do you think the Father will NOT draw some? You are wrong, according to John 12:32: "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men to myself."
Does this mean ALL will be saved? Some will reject His calling based on John 12:48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day."
Obviously, those who hear the Word will be drawn unto Christ by the Spirit of God, for Ephesians 2:8 states "For by grace are you saved through faith". Since we know that faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Rom 10:17), and yet man can reject the Word of God (His sayings), that is a choice. Jesus said He draws ALL MEN to Himself. There is no excuse.
For those who have NEVER heard the Word of God, they are without sin, the Word says in John 15:22 "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin." Why do you think the Apostles and all believers are to go all throughout the world to spread the gospel? That is the Great Commission!
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Pathetic. He doesn't have followers. Give me a break. It's just a web site, and since you can't prove him wrong you falsely acuse him of being a cult. You need to read on his site "Ray answers Florida Bible College Professor" I would love to see you and Ray in a one on one conversation about anything. I know what would happen and I think you do too. You just won't admit it. It's called PRIDE. No one wants to be proven wrong, and not many people will admit to being wrong. It takes more of a person to admit they are wrong.
Actually, I did read that "answer" to the Florida Bible College Professor and found it completely twisted, as do they. That's why they actually utilize his teachings to teach others about FALSE PROPHETS. I've posted my hub, "Refute of Salvation for ALL Doctrine" and you are invited (your choice) to read it. My intention here is to provide scriptures to you who believe there is some purification lake of fire after an unbeliever dies. This is a matter of life and death for ages and ages and ages (how many ages do you want me to list....let's see, infinity) to come! That is the SIN; that is the ERROR. God loves all of you and so do we! We want you to receive SALVATION TODAY. You cannot overcome sin on your own, even after you're saved. Jesus becomes YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS because you become HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS to God through Him!! (2 Cor 5:21).
Hi Carrie, sorry it took so long for me to respond to your call. I had to go to L. Ray Smith's website to read his article. He clearly has it wrong, and this is why: In Matthew 3:11, which he cites, where John the Baptist says: "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire". The verb is used metaphorically in two distinct senses:
1. Of "baptism" by the Holy Spirit which took place on the day of Pentecost;
2. Of the calamity which would come upon the nation of the Jews, a "baptism" of FIRE of divine judgement for rejection of the will and word of God. Matthew 3:11; Luke 3:16.
The reference he (L. Ray Smith) makes to Revelation 20:11-14, about the lake of fire is the second death, which the saints have no part in. Revelation 20:15 clearly says that "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire".
So, not only is this taking place after the Church is gone out of the world, the Rapture, but it clearly says in verse 13 that this is a JUDGEMENT not a purification.
I hope this could be of some assistance to your courageous work.
God Bless
Whezo ~ Oh for the freshness of your spritual eyes and simplicity of what has been made such a complicated matter with these folks. As with the scriptures stated in this hub, that is exactly what the Spirit is saying. The fire is JUDGEMENT, not PURIFICATION. God bless you! The simplicity of the Lord!
The Lord bless your heart and fortify your spirit, sister, as you stand in the gap for these people.
Carrie,
Answer a Fool according to a Fool...
JL, I'm still believing God for your salvation. Greater is HE that is in me than he that is in the world, amen. Praise the Lord! JL, if you're ever drawn to an ice cold beer, why would you not thirst for righteousness, the living water of Jesus Christ? He's offering you water where you will NEVER thirst again! Why put yourself through judgment? You KNOW what His judgment is for those who call His children FOOLS. You know the scriptures, right? You know the consequences. Escape them, while you have time. No man is promised tomorrow. I do love you in the love of the LORD.
All of the Christians are believing that JL. We all wish for you to know peace from the Prince of Peace.
Only thing I have to say here is that no matter who is the best debater, no matter who thinks they know what, God is not mocked and He does indeed see the intent of the heart.
I would like to see Ray in a one on one with God. Job had a one on one with Him so why couldn't Ray do the same?
So many say they are called to preach against the church. Some are "called" to preach against preachers. hey do everything in their power to make everyone else look bad. Jezebel did the same thing and look what happened to her.
It is time to preach the gospel of Christ and let everything else alone.
If I should get rid of every bit of pride in me, would I then have pride in the fact that I got rid of it and be right back where I started? ~~~ SirDent
A person who tries to make everyone else look the fool becomes the fool in the eyes of all who know it. ~~~ SirDent
Thank you, SirDent for that awesome word. My prayer is that Mr. Smith will renounce the lies and twisting of the scripture and confess of the sin of misleading so many before he dies. For this will be the confession that Jesus Christ is Lord, not him. Hell-No, I've never seen so much love come from one man for another. This is a form of idol worship, for you place Him above your very God who sent His truth, even to you, and yet you reject His truth and embrace the coiled serpent's twisting of the truth instead. You can have your eyes opened, if you have just the faith of a mustard seed!
I think there are some (and I'm praying they will read and will know in their hearts) that are actually restentful toward God because they perceive He doesn't find them worthy enough to save them now. This is a lie. Isaiah 49:8: "for He says, 'AT THE ACCEPTABLE TIME I LISTENED TO YOU, AND ON THE DAY OF SALVATION I HELPED YOU', behold now is 'THE ACCEPTABLE TIME'".
John 15:13 "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends, if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you." Indeed, Jesus was speaking to His disciples, but He laid down His life for all of us. We love because He first loved us.
Ray is not laying his life down for you, and even if he did, it wouldn't save you. His suffering is not even close to the mocking and pain Jesus suffered on the cross for (y)our sin. AMEN.
One more thing I must point out here. Satan uses scripture to teach also, yet Jesus said Satan is a liar and the truth is not in him.
Nothing more left to be said here.
Carrie, I enjoy reading these hubs of yours because it's clear that God is doing some mighty works here, using you and your false doctrines to lead others to truthful study and Scriptures. When your done playing with childish things, and ready to learn to truths about God's Word, come see me, God willing.
I rejoice in your persecution. Thanks for promoting Ray's site where others can go God willing, and learn the truths about proper study and The Good News... not your pagan man-made doctrines. Your outright lies and twistings of the Scriptures will be clear to those that God has given clear vision to.
You might want to pray that God gives you a humble heart cause that pride of yours is starting to smell of rot.
Now, regarding the serpent in the Garden of Eden: Ray takes the meaning of the curse to the serpent as "dust you shall eat" as eating man because man was made from the dust. This is taking a literal curse and making it a spiritual one.
How do we know the serpent was really a snake? Well, look up the definition of serpent all throughout the book of Genesis 3. It is Hebrew 5175 nachash (naw-khawsh');a snake (from its hiss):-serpent.
Obviously, the serpent had limbs when God created it, because in Gen 3:14, God's curse to the serpent (snake) is, "on your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life". We know the earth is dust. We know snakes are indeed without limbs (literally, on their bellies).
So why is this a literal curse? Because Adam and Eve were literal people, too. Adam and Eve received literal curses that are real. In verse 16, Eve was cursed with multiplied pain in childbirth and, while her desire will be for her husband, he shall rule over her (God made man the head of the woman and Christ the head of the man). Adam's curse is shown in verse 17-19, "Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; by the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground..."
It seems it finally happened Dan. Your true colors are shining through. Not one time have I read where you tried to teach or spread the gospel of Christ.
I recall that God told Samuel, "Do not weep for Saul, for I have rejected him." God hates certain things also. Read about them in Proverbs.
jacobbsladdr says:7 hours ago I rejoice in your persecution.
SirDent says right now: Why would you rejoice in the persecution of anyone? Do you rejoice in your own persecution?
It seems to me that Carrie is stronger than many of you think. She certainly isn't a pushover and it is not because of her own self. It is the Holy Ghost which strengthens her. Leave her alone and let her be.
Jezebel did everything she could to destroy Elijah. She had 450 prophets come up against him. She prophesised that he would be killed and the dogs would eat his flesh. It is funny how things get turned around. When you wish and prohesy evil upon one of God's children, the same evil you prophesy will come upon you.
Carrie, I truly believe your heart is good. We are called to spread the gospel. God will take care of them once they believe.
Thank you for standing for me and with me, SirDent. Truly our flesh wants to run from the enemy's attacks, yet as David stood before Goliath, we do not have the Spirit of fear. Battle is ugly, and has been made manifest here and elsewhere. JL went so far as to attack the fact I was on anti-depressants to every one of my hubs refuting their false doctrine. How hateful a person. I told JL the greatest gift we are given by the Holy Spirit is love, meaning compassion. I thank God I no longer take anti-depressants, but it is that I fell to the weakness of the enemy's attacks in my own personal life. It is overwhelming. Praise God, He delivers us from bondage. Thank you for your compassion, protection and love because the Fruit of the Spirit is evident in you, SirDent.
Carrie, I understand God in this fashion. Our children do stupid things sometimes.It is natural after all. When they do something that should embarrass us, do we turn pour backs on them? If they end up causing a lot of trouble, do we turn our backs on them? NO!!! We may not approve of something they did, but we still love them and will take care of them. Gods is the same way. He will always take care of His children and will send encouraging help when needed.
Now some children who are not mine, I will not back up like mine. Some are children of Satan and God will not treat them as He does His own children.
I hope this is clear to you. May the Lord bless you abundantly above all that you can contain that it spills over onto others around you.
I receive that blessing, in Jesus' Name, SirDent. And when you bless others, you yourself are blessed even more! Praise God!
The very idea that all will be saved is utterly ridiculous. Wishful thinking at best; though it could be something far worse. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. You did a fine job refuting this false doctrine. Bully for you! And God Bless You!
Praise God, James. It's wonderful to see you share in the ministry to those who may be straddling the fence or may have hope of "coming out of her". We stand united in this purpose!
and i thought God is love and love never fails. wishing thinking i guess
t rafeiro, Did you know that love has different meanings? You might go to Judah's Daughter's profile (the link is on this profile page) and read up on the love of God. The hub you'll be looking for is "HATED On Account of My Name". God does not love the world like He loves His children, and for us to love the world with that love is "hostility toward God". A lot to take in, but the truth will keep us on the straight path, rather than the crooked one of the serpent (crooked as in coils). God bless you.
Philo and agape love. Philo is the stronger love that people have for those close. I haven't studied the usuage of how God uses love on all (whether philo or agape) but He does love all. To say otherwise is heresy. But what's new?
Hell-No. Philo is not the stronger of the two. Agape love is only that with God and the brethren (believers) and is the strongest love (meaning attachment, friendship, to kiss). Jesus said there is no greater love than one who lays down his life for his "friends" (John 15:13). On the other hand, he says "friendship with the world (the lost world) is hostility toward God" (James 4:4).
Philadelphia (brotherly love) is that of brothers and brethren (believers). The love God has for the world and the love believers are to have for the world is agapao (moral, principled, social sense). I put the link here to the hub that breaks it down for both of you. http://hubpages.com/hub/HATED-on-Account-of-My-Nam
My heart still thinks of you often.
Dear fellow siner
It seems you have missed the point about judgment. Don't worry though because your eyes will be opened in future!God's mercy never ends and mercy will always rejoice over judgment.
Patrick, if you can't read this hub and have obvious understanding, not only have you been blinded to spiritual things, but also don't appear literate. A blind person can easily call someone else blind, because you claim to see? I am so burdened for you and those who follow this doctrine of darkness. For you to call the light dark exposes your root, for you try to blow out the light that shines on you!
Yes, I'm a sinner, for to say otherwise means the Truth is not in me. However, I'm a forgiven sinner. If you haven't accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, you are under the Law of sin and death because God still sees you as a sinner, not covered by His blood.
where did abrahams faith come from since he came before the writen word. Jesus said it plainly enough, you did not choose me but I choose you. Also is judas in this hell of yours or is he in heaven? Before you answer this Rev. says that on the foundation of the new city is writen the names of the twelve apostles. why would God put the name of a person who supposedly is responsible for Jesus's death on the holy city. Also it would do you good to look up the definition of judgement before saying it is different from correction. Jesus's was commisioned by the Father to be the saviour of not only you but the entire world. I think your problem is not with L. Ray Smith but with Gods word. Please read 2Cor.3:14 ,4:4. God loves us all! I pray that it be Gods will for your life while your on this earth that you understand the good news! With love, Thaddeus Cole
for God so loved the World that He gave His only begotten Son, THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHALL NOT PERISH BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. 1Tim.2:4,5 is this scrpture a lie or the truth. With love, Thaddeus Cole. P.S. Were we believers before Jesus made His sacrifice? He instructs us to be like Him, should our love be different from His?
Thad, to answer your first comment, Judas was replaced in Acts 1:26 "And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles." Notice it states "with the eleven apostles". Also, if you read the context when Jesus said "You did not choose Me, but I chose you", He is speaking to the twelve apostles. He chose them to be His apostles. I have another hub called "Refute of Salvation for All Doctrine" that will clearly and scripturally answer your questions.
2 Cor 3:14 states the veil is REMOVED IN CHRIST.
2 Cor 4:4 states the minds of the UNBELIEVING is blind.
This takes us then to John 3:16 "whoever BELIEVES shall not perish"
1 Tim 2:4-5 states that God desires all to be saved, and how is that? Coming to the knowledge of the truth. That salvation comes through the one Mediator between God and Man, and that is by believing (entrusting one's spiritual well-being to) in Christ Jesus.
Regarding God so loved the world...the Greek word for love is "agapao" (social, moral and principled love). Those who receive Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior enter in to His "agape" love, which is FRIENDSHIP, attachment, to kiss.
Now, if Jesus already saved the whole world, you cannot explain James 4:4 "know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."
Again, please read the other hub "Refute of Salvation for All", as it will give you more to think about. I pray God open your eyes ~ just pray and ask that He do so, and because it's His will for you to be filled with the Holy Spirit who will guide you into all truth, if you are truly seeking, He will do it.
1Tim.4:10 please explain this little scripture for me, and please make it understandable. Also you might want to look up the word HELL in the old english, which is what the KJV. was translated into to begin with. Study to show thyself approved! with LOVE, Thaddeus Cole
Regarding 1 Tim 4:10, it only confirms what is shown in the following scriptures:
Hosea 13:4 "Yet I have been the LORD (Yehovah) your God (Elohiym) since the land of Egypt; and you were not to know any god except Me, for there is no savior besides Me."
Acts 4:12: "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved" [speaking of Jesus].
We must be saved, and that would not be a requirement, if all are saved.
Regarding Hell, I have a hub on my other profile of Judah's Daughter I invite you to read: http://hubpages.com/hub/HELL-Sheowl--Hades--Tartar
As far as study? I do! I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone WHO BELIEVES (Romans 1:16). Amen :-) God be with you.
First off you did not answer the first question. Second, if He choose the twelve then by nessity he chooses all. third, was Paul an apostle, how about titus and all those after! Jesus said, I chose you the twelve and one of you is a devil. these are the ones JESUS chose. Judas died thats the reason there was only 11 at the time you refer to. You said it yourself, He chose these 12 to be His apostles, did He mess up! You refer to Jam.4:4 as your proof that all aren't saved. Do you actually believe he is talking about the peoples of this world or the lusts there of? Forthly 2Cor. you state that in Christ the veil is removed, and the minds of the unbelieving, if you don't believe what the scripture says of Christ then you are unbelieving. God says to love and pray for your enemies! Do we expect less of our Father who is perfect! Fifth, 1 Tim2:4-5 will Gods desires not be fulfilled or does he just wish that it could be so? I do know that the only salvation we have is through Christ! Thats as plain as the rest of what I have been talking about, but what does that have to do with the salvation of all? Where does the SCRIPTURES say conversion has to come before our bodies die? If that were so it would be in scripture, would it not? Also when Jesus asked Peter who he thought He was, Jesus said blessed are you for flesh and blood did not revell this, but our Father in heaven. In laymans terms: you did not know this of your own intelligents but God allowed him this knowledge. God is soverein in all things not just what our pride thinks He is! To say that God gave up His son for people who he only loved socially is behond me. God is drawing all men and women to Him and that is Gods truth! To say that you choose Jesus because it was availible is an insult to God Who works ALLTHINGS according to the council of HIS WILL. God has ordered your steps not you. If you attained something then why do you boast as though you didn't? You want me to read a hub but I pray you read scripture! I do love all people! Once I didn't, I guess that makes me a enemy of God right?
John 17:9 Jesus said, "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;"
Luke 13:23-28 “And someone said to Him, ‘Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?’ And He said to them, “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.' "But He will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.' Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.' But He will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from Me, all you evildoers!' There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.”
Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels."
Truly, I've addressed ALL your statements. I've been conversing and reasoning with your doctrine for months and have answered your claims in several hubs. I really don't wish to write hub comments, when hubs are already here for you to read.
Know one said that Jesus was not the only way to salvation! God unlike man knows the beging to the end! That is how he can say that Jesus is the saviour of all men TO BE TESTIFIED IN DUE TIME! We ourselves are ignorant of the end, except for the knowledge God gives through His Word and His spirit. God one great day will be ALL in ALL. Just as All are guilty in Adam, so shall all be saved through Christ! God unlike man knows the hearts of every man, we do not. Who pray tell will we reign and teach when Jesus returns for the second time. Mans heart is FULL of pride and God and only God can rid us of it. I wish you well and may what you teach glorify God! A servant of Christ Thaddeus Cole through Gods will and not my own. P.S. I wish your answers to my questions were more to the point of the question, but I figured as much. God bless you and even though I believe by your stance on salvation you are very carnal does not mean I don't love you like a sister. One day we both will stand side by side with our saviour Jesus! Untill that day I bid you good-bye!
Thad, you said, "Just as All are guilty in Adam, so shall all be saved through Christ!" This is a false statement and is NOT in the Bible. Please read the hub I recommended. Some of those who believe as you do are quoted in that hub and those questions are specifically addressed. God bless you also, and I pray you have given your heart to Jesus Christ, or that you have answered His "call". Amen.
God has given Jesus ALL things, some things we can't see as yet. That is what faith is! Just because I haven't seen Jesus ressurected does not mean it is so. When will Abraham confess Jesus as being Gods only begotten Son and believe in Him as the sacrifice for his sin since he is sleeping with his fathers untill Jesus returns. I feel your frustration I to have been in your shoes for many years. with love again Thaddeus Cole
Thad, James 2:19 states, "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder." Why would they shudder if even they will be saved? They confessed who Jesus was, even Legion (Mark 5:7). Jesus has all authority over heaven and hell. Not all will be saved. He said so Himself. We are not saved through fire, even after death, but are saved by the blood of the Lamb, which has already been shed for us, and we must submit our will to His by our own choice. Adam and Eve had a choice; that is why they fell. Why? Because God gave THEM authority. They gave that authority to Satan, who still has the power over unbelievers. Jesus took the authority back when He died on the cross, and we must submit to His authority by asking Him into our hearts, asking Him to fill us with His Spirit, and we will know we are saved.
Luke 11:13 "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"
James 4:2 "yet ye have not, because ye ask not."
John 16:24 "Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full."
why did you not post my last comment? did I say something to offend you and yes it is in the bible! 1Cor15:22 says so! What are the wages of sin but death, or do you know of a nother! In Christ all are made alive each in his own turn! If that is not salvation then what is? Jesus died for all men, especially for those who believe now not exclusivly. You call it my doctrine! Then what is it you teach? Seeing that eternal is not in the original manuscripts or forever and ever! Sounds as though there is an ever after forever like in kids books. I'm stund to hear that! I will shake the dust from my feet on this one. with love for you. Do you not read that every knee shall bow, and every tonge acclaim Jesus is lord to the glory of God the Father. Then he will throw them in the lake of fire eternally. Doesn' sound like a doctrine our loving Father would have given the trates of God writen in His word
First of all, that was a slip, and not intentional. Obviously, I replied to you. Jesus died for all, but it is for naught to those who do not believe. The Bible doesn't say "especially for those who believe", it says "to all who believe".
If you look up the actual Hebrew and Greek definitions of everlasting and eternal:
According to scripture, souls live eternally. They are either eternally in life or eternally condemned.
Daniel 12:2 (Old Testament) states, "Many of those who sleep [die] in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt."
Matthew 25:46 (New Testament) states, "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
The word "everlasting" is the Hebrew word "olam" meaning concealed, the vanishing point, time out of mind, eternity; always; continuance, eternal, everlasting.
The word "eternal" is the Greek word "aionios" perpetual:-eternal, forever, everlasting.
Both heaven and hell is everlasting, neverending, without end. Our souls will dwell in one place or the other after physical death and bodily resurrection. Amen.
did those same demons believe Jesus as their LORD and only saviour. Stan has no power over anything, God is soviern. He is over all things. Why do you give him credit for anything. God says I created evil and good. The devil had to get promission from God to do what he did to Job! Jesus said you have NO power over me but what the Father has given you. Why does God let the devil do what he does? Because He already knows the outcome. God did not go to plan B.He has a perfect plan A. Do you even know what the old english meaning of hell is? why is hell thrown into the lake of fire along with death? why did the old english people put their potatos in hell. Give me a brake,you know the words of scripture but your understanding of them is far from being correct! I know you want post all of what I write and that is sad but it is true. Just like your answers to the questions I've asked, they answer none of them. Your tring to side step the real question. Just like you said about not being in the bible, you knew full well it was in there. you did not even post the one comment i made. How sad coming from someone who claims to be a teacher of Gods.I still do love you though Thaddeus Cole
You said, "The devil had to get promission from God", well he has to ASK. So do WE. For, until we ask God to save us, we are still under the "fatherhood" of Satan. You have lowered yourself to hostility. Hell has different meanings, it means grave (death and hell were thrown into the Lake of Fire), and in Old English (which the Bible does not use in its original languages), people used to refer to potato celars as hell (based on the fact that Hell is a pit, but a bottomless one).
The KJV was translated into old english. A quick search on the computer can lay that point to rest. You said the devil is in control of the unsaved how can that be. The devil does tempt us but in control, I think not. Only God is in control of anything. Hell is pit with out a bottom plus it is thrown into the lake of fire. I thought you said you either went to heaven or hell for eternity now then hell is trown there,so where do we actually spend eternity hell or the lake of fire. You say that a SOUL is eternal. Do you know that God took a body breathed His spirit into it and it became a living soul. When you die your spirit gos back to God who gave it and that living soul dies. It is not alive in some other location it is dead untill God resurrects it from where? The dead! You have no knowledge in death or preception if you would have it. Imortallity has been given to Jesus only at this time and age. No one is in heaven know but Him. Where I go you cannot follow but I will come again and receive you unto myself that where I am so shall you be also. Like I said before, you have lack in understanding Gods truths but that is not your fault. As you said all you have to do is ask. By the way did Jesus not ask God to let this cup pass over me? The very next words out of his mouth is, but let not My will be done but yours. until another day, may God bless all. To the glory of God the Father. In love Thaddeus Cole
First of all, The KJV is translated from the original Hebrew and Greek text into all kinds of languages. Old English, Chinese, Italian, Philippino....etc. etc. etc. All must go back to the original languages of the original text to rightly divide the Word of Truth.
In 2 Cor 4:4, the "god of this world" is Satan. Adam and Eve gave him their domain. It is he who blinds the minds of the unbelieving. John 8:44 states, "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father." So, we're either children of God, or children of the devil. God does not FORCE anyone unto salvation, but calls them, woo's them. It is the choice of the child of the devil to repent and run to Him, giving Him control by the power of His Spirit within us.
Jesus could have been delivered from the cross, but He, as we do, submit to the will of the Father. If He had never died, we would have no Savior.
You may not believe the soul is with the Lord (or in Sheowl/Hades) after death, but Paul stated that we are "absent from the body and present with the Lord." If the body stays with the soul, we would not ever be absent from the body. If the spirit that ascends to God is His spirit and not ours, "we" cannot be present with the Lord while "absent" from the body. (2 Cor 5:8)
A soul goes either to Sheowl/Hades (Hebrew/Greek) or to Paradise, the third heaven, as Paul called it, upon physical death (2 Cor 12:2). The thief on the cross was told by Jesus that he would be with him in Paradise that day. (Luke 23:43)
The Lake of Fire is AFTER the millennial reign of Christ, and all who are in Sheowl/Hades/Tartaroo (hell), and all bodies in the the graves (hell) and in the oceans who have never believed will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Geenna/Hell).
Likewise, the New Heaven and New Earth are AFTER the millennial reign of Christ, and all who are in Paradise, and all bodies in the the graves (hell) and in the oceans who have believed will enter into the New Heaven and New Earth.
You are invited to read my hub on Hell, once again. Also, I have hubs on Judah's Daughter called "Beyond Death: What the Bible Says" and "Our Heavenly Home".
So what is the Lake of Fire and what happens to people in it? I want to really know what you think happens to these people for eternity.
You already know what my study results showed, and it is only what the Bible states clearly. You already read my hub on Hell, Hell-No, so there is no further answer for you, as you want to have your "ears tickled". The Bible states they "have no rest day or night", and "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever". While you believe forever and ever to be an age or ages, you are mistaken...missing the mark. The rich man in hades was not told he would one day be delivered from the flames...that's not in the Bible anywhere. I pray you will ASK the Lord to take authority in your life and that you receive Him by faith and ASK Him to fill you with His Holy Spirit...knowing then, you are saved. I'm sorry you simply don't believe this teaching. Follow what you will ~ one is a doctrine of life and the other is death.
OK, so what's the brimstone for?
Makes me wonder if hell isn't some sort of volcanic fire, since brimstone is associated with volcanic fire. It would look like a lake, would it not? Lava is obviously underground and comes up from the depths of the earth. Just my thoughts. I've never been to hell, so I really can't tell you more than what the Bible says. However, in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, fire and brimstone came from heaven. Written as inspired by God, considering no one saw the fire come from heaven, except Lot's wife...and we know what happened to her when she looked back.
"Brimstone is yellow, elemental sulfur, which burns with a very very hot blue flame that you can only just see, to give the highly unpleasantly pungent gas, sulfur dioxide. Brimstone is frequently found round volcanic vents."
so jesus went to paridise the day he died? The sign that jesus gave them was that he would be in the heart of the earth 3 days, not in paridise. Healso told God, I commit my spirit to you and then died. Also brimstone is used in purification of metals! You said it sounds like a volcano. Do you remember telling me that hell is the grave. How can that be the lake of fire also? God ressurects all the dead small and great. Hell and the grave give up thoce who are in them. Does God put them back in and then throw hell back in. Your body after resurrection is a spiritual body not a physical one. How can literal fire hurt a spiritual body? It doesn't! The fire it self is also spiritual. God Himself is the spiritual fire that consumes. Rev. is a book of symbols. I'm glad you spoke of sodom and gomorrah. God's word said it would be more better for them in the day of judgement than others! does this mean they will only stay a billion years or is the tempature turned down a little for them. The scriptures as given by God in their orginal form do not contridict themselves. Do you know what contridiction is? Go up to about 2 or 3 comments and see were you do it. With love,Thaddeus Cole
So you believe satan to be a God? Do you understand what you are saying because you clearly don't understand what God says. Just because this world is evil just as satan is does not make him a god. There is one God and One mediator between God and man. Sounds like only one God to me, unless you lack understanding spiritually and in figuritive language. Sorry if it seems I'm being hostle, I'm not. You said that if the soul stays with the body, the soul is the body once you add the life giving spirit of God. read Gen. God made man in 2 stages, He formed him from the dust of the earth, then he breathed the spirit of life into him! This made Adam not just a lump of clay anymore but a living soul. He did not put a soul in him. The very fact that He gave him the spirit of life made man a living soul.With love, Thaddeus Cole
Interesting that you haven't answered how brimstone contribues to the torture of sinners. It does not make fire any hotter. What's most interesting is that you fail to realize that sulphur has been used for thousands of years to purify for religious ceremonies. It's even been used in medicines. Perhaps God knew about all of this before it was ever used to make pills for WW2 soldiers. Now, your volcano example doesn't surprise me. I know that you lend credence to the ridiculous notion that hell is inside of the Earth. So the Lake of Fire is not literal fire at all. It's literal magma and god couldn't tell the difference. Guess he shoulda hung around volcanic erruptions to see what happens when lava cools and compare it to what happens when fire cools.
But now I am clear that you think the Lake of Fire is for the soul purpose of torture. Oh yes, and since you didn't answer what the people in the LOF are or will be doing, I imagine you'll say, "why, they are weeping and nashing teeth" (or you can correct me on that). But Carrie, what do you really think they will be doing? Perhaps a lot of screaming? Forget asking for a drop of water. They're on fire aren't they? We want to know what you really think is physically happening in the Lake of Fire.
Also if we are in the lake of fire for eternity would we not to have had been there from the begining or do we just pick when eternity should start?
Also 1Tim. 4:10 does say especially those who believe! With love,Thaddeus Cole
Thad, Jesus is God. God is Spirit and is omnipresent. He can be everywhere at one time. The thief on the cross was in the very presence of God in Paradise, that day, the day he died. The Bible states that Jesus, while His body was in the tomb, descended into the lower parts of the earth and proclaimed victory to the spirits in prison. If you study the meanings of hell, you will know those spirits in prison are in Tartaroo, the deepest abyss of Hades (hell). This is described in my hub, "Beyond Death: What the Bible Says" (Judah's Daughter). This is a picture of the soul leaving the dead body, and yet returning to the body when it is resurrected as an incorruptible body. The same will happen for us. As I said, if the soul stays with the body until resurrection, we would NEVER be absent from the body, as the Apostle Paul stated. Bodies will be resurrected at the rapture/the beginning of the millennial reign (believers) and the end of the millennial reign (unbelievers).
While you wish to focus on brimstone and purification, it is as described above as being present in volcanic eruptions. Fiery lava kills everything in its path and no grass ever grows where lava has destroyed. Just look at "Craters of the Moon" in Idaho. This is what is stated about that area: "An area of about 60 miles in diameter, where nothing meets the eye but a desolate and awful waste, where no grass grows nor water runs, and where nothing is to be seen but lava."
Since you refuse to read my hub on Hell, there are four meanings for hell in the Bible, I will summarize them here:
Sheowl/Hades (where the rich man went) Luke 16:23.
Tartaroo (the deepest abyss of hades where the angels who sinned in the day of noah are incarcerated) 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6
Geenna (the Lake of Fire, the final judgment of all evil and unbelieving) Rev 20:14 (translated "death and Hades" were thrown into the Lake of Fire).
Let's look at Matthew 10:14 in context, "If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town." That does not mean one is purified ~ I don't know how you can assume such.
You don't need to spew accusations at me about Bible contradictions. I have not contradicted myself. You puzzle-piece your scripture into what you wish to believe. You have a guide, just like Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses do. Their doctrine makes all the sense in the world to them, too. I am sorry we cannot see "eye to eye" ~ any more than God and Satan see eye to eye.
Thad, first of all, Satan is called the "god of the world". False gods are never capitalized in the Bible. There are many scriptures that confirm this. Satan tells Jesus in Matthew 4:8-9 "Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 'All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me.'"
Now, let's read about the spirit breathed into Adam in Genesis 2:7 and compare it with 1 Cor 15:45:
Gen 2:7 (KJV) "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
1 Cor 15:45 (KJV) "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."
Likewise, Matthew 10:28 states that God is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Lake of Fire: Geenna).
Hell No, I've already adressed brimstone with Thad. God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah with fire and brimstone. Brimstone is sulpher and found inside the earth, not in outer space. This is why many believe hell is inside the earth. Jesus speaks of the New Heaven and New Earth to come, so heaven or hell is not somewhere in outer space. The Bible says that in Hades, the rich man wanted a drop of water to cool his tongue and was in torment in the flames. The Bible says there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth in the Lake of Fire. Since souls and bodies are spiritual after death and resurrection, they will not die, but be in torment, as the Bible says. Again, the rich man was not told he would be delivered from Hades upon the resurrection of Jesus Christ or at any other time. Jesus either lied about the rich man in Hades, or He spoke the truth. I believe He spoke the truth.
Thad, the Lake of Fire judgment happens at the Judgment Seat of Christ, after His millennial reign. Death (bodies from the grave and the sea) and Hades (souls who have been there since physical death) will be cast into the Lake of Fire for all eternity ~ that is the time it begins, and it will never end.
Thad, 1 Timothy 4:10 (you are correct), however, Jesus died for the entire world to be their Savior. Those who believe are saved, and those who do not have hope to believe until the day they die. In other words, the gift of salvation is for all who believe, and doesn't mean He is not the Savior of those who have yet to believe. Their sin has been paid for, but they must accept this truth and believe it. Reading with this understanding, we will show this scripture here:
1 Tim 4:10 "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."
You cannot find any other verse to support your interpretation of this, especially one stating "especially those who believe". I'm not going to get into the rhetoric of "desires all men to be saved, etc." I have addressed these in my hubs, which you obviously are not reading. I've labored many months to address you and those who believe as you do ~ if you want me to re-state EVERYTHING here, that's not going to happen. You must take some respectful responsibility to read the research, if you care to be challenged. If you wish to stay in the belief you have, then there's no need to try to sway my faith, as I will not be moved.
I never said that hell was in outer space. I've already shown several times that hell is a mistranslation and the doctrine is absurd. So in other words, it doesn't exist. You keep talking about the rich man in hell as if that parable is talking about one person. That parable is talking about the entire Jewish nation under the headship of Judah. Perhaps it can be refering to the Great white Throne Judgment for gentiles, but it is most definately refering to the 2000 year old plight of the Jewish nation. I wrote a hub showing this specificaly. It's a fair summary of what Ray Smith wrote but don't let that interfere with your reading it and learning something. Again, a drop of water? Please!! Have you no spiritual recognition? Gnashing of teeth? Not the best description of being on fire if you ask me. I bet you couldn't hold your finger in a flame for 3 seconds without screaming. And you think one on fire would request a drop of water? I also noticed your spiritual belch when you said that the people in the graves and the oceans that never believed will be cast into the LOF. . . . . . .The oceans? Have that many people been lost at sea that the seas is refering to oceans in Revelation? And so we learn that all who have not believed will be burned with searing heat for all eternity. Oh those poor Bushmen of that African desert that I can't spell. And the Aboriganies, and those who never questioned their parent's beliefs. The doctrine of hell reaches the very depths of insanity.
Hell No, You think Lazarus was not a Jew? Jesus is called the Lion of Judah, so how dare you say that the Jewish nation under Judah goes to hell! That is Satanic, if I've ever heard such a thing! Lazarus was in the bosom of Abraham, the father Isaac, the father of Jacob, the father of Judah! Jews are God's chosen ones. Truly, Gentiles (wild olive tree) are grafted into the Jews (cultivated olive tree), and only those who receive their Savior, the Messiah to the Jews, are saved.
All of Jesus' parables speak the truth. In fact, some do not think the account of the rich man in Hades is a parable, because, when parables were written, the Bible prefaces the story as a "parable" 57 times. This account was not prefaced as such.
When you speak of touching a flame (in the flesh), of course it would be hot and our flesh would get burned. Spiritual bodies, on the other hand, are not flesh. If "no flesh and blood inherits the kingdom of God" (1 Cor 5:15), then no flesh and blood enters hell either. We become spirit after death ~ incorruptible ~ meaning, there is no physical death. The "second death" is an everlasting death, because death means corruption to the body. Incorruptible means no corruptible death.
The word "sea" does not always mean people, as in the case of Moses parting the Red Sea. You should know better. Just like the word Hell does not always mean grave.
Revelation 20:13-15 is literal "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." You mean, not everyone's name is written in the Book of Life? Obviously, not all are saved. The rich man couldn't get out of Hades, any more than one is promised to get out of Geenna.
Check out the next verse (Rev 13:16), which confirms that "sea" doesn't always mean people: "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea." That would be water, Mr. HN. Otherwise, the new earth is empty.
Again, if you think that section in Revelation is talking about the oceans, you have the spiritual recognition of a fetus. It's funny actually that you said that. What isn't funny is how you twist what I say. First I never said that anybody was going to your hell. What I said, is the Jewish people in general have lost out on the gifts promised to them by God because they haven't payed close enough attention to realize that the Messiah has indeed come.
The rich man was dressed in purple which denotes royalty. Judah was to carry the royal line in Israel.
And cambric: Symbolic of the clothing priests wore. Judah had both the Scepter and the Priesthood.
. . . .child, be reminded. ..
Judah was of the line of Abraham. The rich man speaks of 5 brothers. Judah had 5 brothers through his mother Leah. The entire sequence is speaking of the general Jewish population, who until about 60 years ago, had no home land, have been persecuted greatly, and still are clueless as to who their savior is.
As for Lazarus? He is said to be in Abraham's bosom showing a very close emotional relationship. Abram had promised all of his possessions to be inherited by his faithful steward Eliezer. But this promise was taken away once Isaac was born. Eliezer remained faithful and even found a wife for Isaac. And guess what Carrie, Eliezer was a gentile. Gentiles were refered to as dogs by the Jews of that time. Eliezer is a representation of Lazarus. In that parable, Lazrus is a representation of gentiles. No, not all gentiles. Only those gentiles who remaine faithful in adverse situations. And Abraham's bosom is not the Christian heaven. Nor is it the coming salvation of the faithful. It represents comfort for those who are stuggling in this life but have the assurance of the rewards to come. Some have this genuine comfort (I'm not talking about the false beliefs of this world). But the rich man is speaking of those who had much either in life or in their early Jewish heritage. This is thoroughly explained in my hub about the rich man and Lazarus. And no, the rich man hasn't been given any assurance of getting out of that condition. But he will be judged and shown the truths in time and will receive all of the gifts once Christ is ready to present them.
Oh, once more, to answer your first question. No, Lazarus was not a Jew.
You need to do alot of studing on two words, hell and eternity. That would clear alot of this up. If it is a spiritual body then flames want never hurt it since it would have no nervice system. What is the flame and heat for, light or warmth. Every lair Will have their part in the lake of fire right. Jesus did for the pentilty of sin which is death. The carnal thinking of man has to be destroyed after Jesus brings us back to life. Have you ever told a lie carrie? You will say yes, Jesus paid the price for me! He did pay the pentilty for sin which is death! When made alive again what or who will rid us of the carnal thoughts that made us lie in the first place. You said that jesus is God! thats how he went to paradise. No my dear Jesus is the Son of God! That is part of the faith that saves us from death! The more you are confronted with the truth the more you throw in untruths. There is ONE GOD and ONE MEDIATOR between God and man, JESUS!Just because me and my son look alike, think alike, act alike does not make him me. He is my son and always will be. Just because people believe in pagon gods does not make them so. Jesus hands over the kingdom to His Father so that all will be all in God. Why is that if both are God or is that just a play on words. I guess God hands the kingdom over to Himself, even thuogh it is Him who already has it. You say your doctrin is one of life and mine is one of death.Funny how yours has trillions tortured for ever because the devil was to strong. While the one I believe has all men repentant and living under Gods love for the eons.Now which one was death and which was life again? I feel so sad for you but for a reason God has blinded you and I know one day the truth will be taught to you and you to will repent and believe in Christ as LORD. With love Thaddeus Cole
Hell-No, to assume that Lazarus is representative of Gentiles is ludicrous. Martha and Mary had a brother named Lazarus and all of them were Jewish. Of course, it was not their brother Jesus was talking about (as Jesus raised him from the dead).
The story is about rich and poor, and the attitude of the rich man toward the poor beggar. Even in Hades, the rich man wanted to send Lazarus to his five brothers (let's order the poor guy around to serve the rich guy). This has nothing to do with pointing a finger at Judah. It really doesn't matter what tribe the rich man came from, or Lazarus for that matter. You're missing the point. You are stating something that simply is not specific in the Bible; thus, you are assuming.
Abraham was the "father" of all the Jewish nations, and was the great-great grandfather of Judah. Does your grandfather call you "son"? If he does, it's not literal, now is it? Just because the dogs came to lick the sores on Lazarus, doesn't mean Lazarus was a "dog" himself or a Gentile. And whether or not Eliezer was a Gentile or not doesn't prove Lazarus was a Gentile. Lazarus was not the servant of the rich man, but a beggar at the gates. All of htis is irrelavent to the meaning of this account.
This is about righteousness and unrighteousness. It's about consequence and the permanency of those consequences. Once you've died in your sin, there is no hope. For the hopeless here, there is hope. There is obviously a hell (Hades) and a place of peace and comfort after death, in many more scriptures than this one account. If you want to read so much more into this than you should, it only causes you rhetoric and confusion. God is not the author of confusion.
As far as "sea" goes, it does NOT always mean peoples, nations, tribes and tongues. Why don't you get out your Hebrew and Greek dictionaries and look up the words for yourself instead of having me spoon-feed you.
Thaddeus, I'm just going to share the following scriptures with you to prove to you that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one in the same God:
Hosea 13:4 "Yet I have been the LORD (Yehovah) your God (Elohiym) since the land of Egypt; and you were not to know any god except Me, for there is no savior besides Me."
Acts 4:12: "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved" [speaking of Jesus].
John 3:5: Our Savior, Jesus says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." The very same Spirit of God that overshadowed Mary is the Father of our Savior, Jesus Christ (the Son of God), and is the very Holy Spirit that now indwells those who are "born again", born of the Spirit. Jesus is not called the “Son of the Holy Spirit”, so the Holy Spirit IS God. God is Spirit (John 4:24).
So, if we are "born of the Spirit" and yet are called "born of God" and "children of God", this proves it even further. We cannot be born of the Spirit, unless we are forgiven by Yehovah Elohiym through Jesus (Greek: Iesous (ee-ay-sooce') meaning Jehoshua, the name of our Lord and two (three); same as Hebrew Yehowshuwa meaning Yehovah saved.)
Isaiah 7:14 “Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel (with us is God).
Isaiah 9:6 “For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.”
As the Son of Man, Jesus was made a "little lower than the angels", yet was fully God and fully Man, indwelt by the Godhead. He is the express image of the invisible God. He prayed as we are to pray. He submitted to the will of God as we are to submit to the will of God. He came to set the example for us and take all our temptations and sin upon Himself. God is Spirit, as I've proven by scripture and He did not cease to exist outside of the Son of Man. He is omnipresent.
If you want more proof, read "God is ONE: Trinity Explained" and "Who Do You Say That I AM", both on my Judah's Daughter profile.
As far as TORMENT, the Bible doesn't say people in hell are TORTURED. Note they are spelled differently and their definitions are different.
So again, you fail to see simple examples that I use concerning that obvious parable. Lazarus being a Jewish name does not have anything to do with why that name represents the gentiles. The name meant helpless. But let's not let that confuse us. You think that story is literal truth when it has countless instances of symbolism. I shouldn't be surprised because you no doubt think that Revelation is literal. Except you think the fire is magma. Just a slight difference I suppose. By the way, wouldn't you think burning people with fire would be torture? We know it says torment and this doesn't mean torture. It's not we who think people are burned literally in some hell hole for eternity. I would still like to hear what you think these people are doing while being eternally burned.
Hell-No, I just had another insight from the Lord for you, and have added it to this hub, as this is truly inspired by God for you...regarding the Father drawing us.
Revelation is explained by the angels in the book. They interpret Revelation for us. Yes, symbolism is used and understood by those who study. The account of the rich man and the beggar is not found in Revelation. There are many, many scriptures that speak of all three types of hell, and are specifically given in my hub on Hell. Look them up for yourself. I can only speak what the Word of God speaks, and that is hell is torment, in flames of fire and brimstone. Bodies are not physical, but spiritual. "They have no rest day or night" and the "smoke of their TORMENT goes up forever and ever", and there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth".
The Holy spirit procedes from the father. It is not another person of God. You are right it is God! Jesus on the other hand is THE SON OF GOD! Don't double talk, answer my question please. If jesus is God why does He hand over the kingdom to the Father so that all may be all in God? If Jesus is God then all would already be all in God. Why does Jesus not know the day or the hour of His own return, just the Father knows. If you can answer these two questions to the point instead of something that has nothing to do with what I asked. Ask anyone with half a brain and they will tell you that throwing someone in a lake of fire for any amount of time would be torture. Then tell them it will be for an eternity and they will not die. Then tell them the reason they were thrown there, some of which never even heard of God or of Christ. All of these that were cast there bowed and proclaimed Christ as Lord by the spirit of God but they were sent there anyway. See what they would say? Why not ask God yourself! Thats what I did. I once went to jails and prisons and taught, I had alot of concerns about what I taught. My pastor was of no help he also double talked. It was hard for me to let go of the doctrins of men which I was taught from childhood! Praise be to God that not only was I called of God but I was also choosen By Him and it was not the other way around. I played church for 35 years before He gave me the Knowledge of truth. God has mercy on some and some He hardens in this life but God never tortures His childern. To say that you want be moved is false, God can move you if it be His will. With love, Thaddeus Cole
Uuuuuuuummmm?? So what's the revelation? Aaahh, did it occur to you that parables are also symbolism? So, the non literal but real fire and brimstone of Revelation is only tormenting rather than torturous. So, do the inhabitants actually feel this non literal but real fire and brimstone? (Excuse me, I meant magma and brimstone.) Or is it just a lot of smoke getting in their spiritual eyes. I mean, they can't feel it, right? Oh yeah, they would have to if they were screaming as you suggest when you lend credence to those Russian's digging into hell. After all, it's literal. . .. .or non literal brimstone down in the Earth? I'm confused. I don't think you know what you are talking about again. So which is it Carrie? Are people screaming way down under the crust of the earth, or don't they feel anything. . . . .meaning they wouldn't be screaming? Have you thought about any of your absurd beliefs or does your religion not allow this? Are those born into pagan cultures going to wallow in pain forever or do you think God had a plan for them? It's time for you to come clean. What is the purpose of the Lake of Fire and do spiritual beings suffer pysically. . ..or. . . .non physically, although only at the level of torment. . . . Help me out, I don't know what you think. Is it literal fire or magma, and can the people there actually feel it? And since you don't really know the word of God in my oppinion, stop quoting scriptures that you don't understand. I want your oppinion on what the Lake of Fire is, does, and causes.
Thaddeus, Jesus was the Son of Man, and the "day nor the hour" is part of the Jewish festival of trumpets, Rosh Hashana. Jesus also said He would come like a "thief in the night", which is also part of the Jewish wedding feast terminology. Jesus came to minister to the "lost sheep of Israel" (Ma 15:24) and spoke in their terminology.
I have a hub called, "In The Air-On The Earth" that goes into this in more detail. Here is just an example of Jesus speaking to the Jews:
1 Thes 5:2 "For you yourselves KNOW FULL WELL that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night." Verse 4 "But you, brethren, ARE NOT IN DARKNESS, that the day would overtake you like a thief;"
As far as Jesus turning the kingdom over to God, all authority is granted unto Him (Ma 28:18). He was "Jesus" as the Son of Man, and is God. Only the Holy Spirit can reveal this to you. You are invited again to read the hubs I recommended to challenge your mistaken beliefs.
God has more than "half a brain", and it is man's interpretation of torment and torture that is not God's brain. The wisdom of man is foolishness to God (1 Cor 1:20 and 25).
Not everyone who says, "Lord, Lord" will inherit the kingdom of God (Ma 7:1). You know this to be true. It's in the Word. So, simple confession of the truth is not believing (submitting one's spiritual well-being to Christ), for the demons also believe and yet shudder (Jas 2:19).
Regarding being chosen by God, please read my add to this hub about "Unless the Father Draws (Drags) Him". There's more on that subject for you.
As far as "double-talk", it's only perceived to be so by you because you have "double-interpretation" in your mind. There is only one sound doctrine, and L. Ray Smith is twisted as the coils of the Serpent.
Funny, Hell-No, you only focus on Revelation? How about the words of Jesus? How about the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke? Speaking specifically of the Lake of Fire, look up the following scriptures: Mt 5:22 & 5:29, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15 and 23:33; M'r 9:43, 9:45 and 9:47; Lu 12:5; Jas 3:6. The Bible tells you all I have said, and more. If there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth", that means something is felt. "Torment" is felt. "No rest day or night" is felt. Help yourself. The Bible tells us this is the JUDGMENT of God; not the "purification" of God. You tell me I don't know my Bible? That's just your opinion, for your interpretation (or should I say, L. Ray Smith's interpretation) of the Bible merely tickles your ears.
2 Timothy 4:3-4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths."
I don't have to try to convince you. If you continue to ask, I will answer. God will do the same. You might try asking Him personally.
So it's felt. What, the gnashing of teeth or the fire? Gnashing of teeth has nothing to do with pain. Before they stoned Silas they gnashed their teeth at him. No rest, is only felt in a physical sense. Spiritual bodies don't sleep. It's speaking of the torment of being shown truths that you refuse to believe at the moment. Again, don't give me scriptures concerning the LOF because you don't even know what it is. Now that you have ignorantly stated that the LOF is felt physically, please show why a god of perfection would send illinformed people to it eternally.
Hell-No, rest is not sleep. There will be NO REST DAY OR NIGHT. Torment is felt. Have you ever been tormented? Obviously, the rich man was thirsty ~ NO WATER. HEAT. STENCH of SULPHER. Again, read the scriptures I gave you about the Lake of Fire. They will be most descriptive. If Hell cannot be felt physically, then heaven cannot either. I choose not to believe the lie you obviously believe. Whether you believe in heaven or hell doesn't save you. You don't get saved because you are afraid of going to Hell. You get saved because you understand who Jesus is, and want to fall in love with Him and spend your eternity with Him. His heart becomes your heart and you love Him with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. You share the love of Jesus and the fact they must be saved (accept Him as Savior) ~ how hard is that? For those who are called, it is not hard. We jump! The Word says that God draws all men to Himself, and this is done by the hearing of the Word. If one hears and rejects His Word, they are children of the Devil and will spend their eternity with him, not God. There is no in-between, and not everyone will be saved. Jesus said so. AMEN.
Boy, where do I start? Jesus never said that all would not be saved. Never did He say that. There are conditions to being saved. That I know. But He never said that these conditions would not eventually be met for all. Just as you said, God draws all men to Himself. That's what I've been saying. Just not everybody now. The fact that it says all, proves my point.
Now for the most ludicrous part of your last post: The stench of sulphur? Sulphur only has stench when mixed with other agents. Sulphur was used as a fumigant for religious ceremonies for god's sake. Thirsty? Your rich man assumtion is just more Babylonian twaddle. Torment does not have to be felt physically. This is ridiculous. Often kids are bullied by words alone. That in itself is tormenting. Having a job that you can't stand with bosses yelling at you can be tormenting. Going to prison and being locked up in a small cell most of the day is tormenting. Where do you come up with such untruth? I think it's really time for you to consider the notion of eternal pain. Trust me, if you can bring your mind to wrap around this idea, you will begin to beg for truth. Because you obviously don't have it.
Oh, and just to answer what you said to the other poster: Hell did not mean pit in Old English. It meant to cover. Where do you think we got the word helmet from? Still, they found a way to use it to support a terrible false doctrine.
Carrie, How are you its good to see the Lord at Work. I only see the Scripture one way God's Word is True and never change's. Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy His Word is Truth.
If the Prophet of God Zechariah speaks these Words then they are from the Spirit of Jesus Christ. I will bring the third part though the Fire to be refined as fine Gold or Silver. It is clear that not all will be able to call Him The Lord there GOD. Amen
K.J.V. Zec 13:8.9 8And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
Hell-No, Luke 13:23 "And someone said to Him, 'Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?' And He said to them,'Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.'" Does Jesus say here, all will be saved ~ even eventually? NO.
Torment may be that of being tormented by demons, whether in your mind or in their presence. We cannot say exactly what type of torment the Word is talking about, but that it will be eternal torment.
As far as sulpher smelling or not, we don't know if our senses will be sharpened or if we may have none in the next life. According to testimonies of people who have been pronounced dead and then been revived, they speak of the stench of sulpher in hell. It is only hear-say, of course. Likewise, people who have stated they experienced heaven speak of hightened knowledge and senses, and the smell of sweet perfume and fruit.
There is no salvation after death. Judgment is not purification. Destruction is not purification. If you read all the scriptures, you will see the words "death", "judgment" and "destroy". The Lake of Fire is the end, and fire will not save you. The blood of Jesus saves. Faith in Jesus who already shed His blood saves you. He will draw all men unto Him through His Word while all are alive. They have the choice only then. You have heard the Word of God and are guilty of rejecting it, for you are "waiting" to be saved in the next life, or "hoping" to be saved in this one. Just because you don't believe in eternal hell, though the Bible is clear about it, doesn't mean your interpretation is right. In fact, if you are NOT right, then all who wait until after they die (so they can enjoy sinning all throughout this life), will indeed perish. Perish means death. It does not mean purification.
Brother Leroy ~ it's a good point that even those "refined in the fire" (which are trials and persecutions in this life ~ before they die) is said to be 1/3. Still not ALL. And this particular scripture is speaking of the Jews...and perhaps that of the Day of the Lord (the Great Tribulation). I will have to do some more detailed study on this passage.
Bottom line is, the Lake of Fire is not an after-life purification, as this universalist doctrine believes. Thank you for your contribution to sharing yet more pertinent information with this group, brother Leroy. God bless you!
First death, then purification. By the way, death certainly does not mean screaming in fire.
Hell-No, Hebrews 9:27 states the contrary, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"...do you see the word "purification" there? Do you see that a man can die twice? No. The second "death" is eternal "death" in the Lake of Fire...and there is no getting out. The Lake of Fire being a purification unto salvation is a lie. The word "death" (spiritual) is permanent. It is not temporary. The word "life" (spiritual) is permanent also and is not temporary.
Frist thing I want to address is LOVE! You claim that agape love is only that with the Father and brethren. You claim agapao is the love for the world. Is that what you meant to say? Because, according to the strongest strongs exhaustive concordence of the bible you are flat wrong. Page 1587 agapao #25v. GK:26[26,27]. to love; in the NT usually the active love of God for his Son and his people, and the active love his people are to have for God, each other,and EVEN ENEMIES:- love [73], loved [39], loveth [20], beloved[7], lovest [2], lovedst [1]! Agape, GK: 27[25]. love, in the NT usually the active love of God for his Son and his people, and the active love his people are to have for God, each other, and even enemies; Do you see your era? Now to the next point. You said were is purification in the word judgment? From the NIV compact dictionary of the bible(Isa 2:12; Hos 5:8; Amos 5:18) Qoet, "The purpose of the judgment is purification! In the NT, as well as the OT, judgment is the aspect of the deliverance of believers. So you see Carrie you need to STUDY. With love, Thaddeus Cole
Strongs Concordance: agapao (ag-ap-ah’-o); perh. from agan (much) to love (in SOCIAL or MORAL sense (be-) love (-ed). Compared to our love of God and God’s love for believers, this is wider, embracing especially the judgment and the deliberate assent of the will as a matter of PRINCIPLE, DUTY and PROPRIETY; a matter of the mind.
agape (ag-ah’-pay); love, i.e. AFFECTION or benevolence; specifically (plural) a love-feast:- (feast of CHARITY), ([-ably]), DEAR, love as shown in John 15:13 “"Greater LOVE has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his FRIENDS. You are My FRIENDS if you do what I command you.” If we reject Him, we are not His FRIENDS. This type of love is that described in 2 Thessalonians 2:10 “…and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because THEY DID NOT RECEIVE the LOVE of the TRUTH so as to be SAVED.”
James 4:4-5 “You adulteresses, do you not know that FRIENDSHIP with the world is HOSTILITY toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a FRIEND of the world makes himself an ENEMY of God. Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: ‘He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us’?”
Regarding Isaiah 2:12 "For the LORD of hosts hill have a day of reckoning against everyone who is proud and lofty, and against everyone who is lifted up, that he may be abased." I don't see anything about purification here. The proud will be made low.
Regarding Hosea 5:8 "Bow the horn in Gibeah, the trumpet in Ramah. Sound an alarm at Beth-aven: "Behind you, Benjamin!" ?? What does this have to do with judgement and purification? Did you misquote the Bible verse?
Regarding Amos 5:18 "Alas, you who are longing for the day of the LORD, For what purpose will the day of the LORD be to you? It will be darkness and not light;" Do you see anything about judgment and purification here?
What BIBLE are you reading, Thad?
Thad, if you go to biblos.com and search for any scripture that uses the words judgment and purification in the same verse, you will not find a single one.
For those who think the Day of the Lord is the judgment seat of Christ, for unbelievers to be cast into the Lake of Fire, it is not the same. The Day of the Lord is the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" and called "The Great Tribulation", which will last for seven years ~ people who are alive will have unrestrained persecution. Some will be saved during this time; some will not. Those who die unsaved will be cast into the Lake of Fire after the tribulation period is over and the Great White Throne Judgment takes place.
I have wrote were I got my info? strong's strongest exhaustive concordence of the bible! Qoet,"the most up-to-date Hebrew and Greek dictionaries for PRECISE word study. Fully revised and corrected! Did you read from what was qoeted??? Do you think that James4:4-5 is saying not to love or be the friend of the people of the world or the things in the world such as evil, lust, self-righteousness, etc. If that is what you think then I don't believe you have any discernment. As far as purification, that part is from the NIV compact dictionary of the bible which I said in the comment if you had read the whole thing. I read the new spirit filled life bible NKJV,the NIV study bible,the interlinear bible hebrew, greek and english,holy bible KJV. These are the only ones I have at this time. Do I need another? Read my dear what was writen then look at the resource qoeted from, then give a comment. As far as misquote, I kill those but I don't get scripture from. I pull out books and read. If I don't have that resource I call a relative who is a professor at memphis state. Who sends that resource to me via the post office. The meek shall inherit the earth! Unless you become like one of these little children you shall never see the kingdom of God. God's judgments make us hummble, meek. They let us know who is in control. When we feel proud they bring us low. That is purification. If not it is punishment for no reason. If you do not learn from a judgment then that one wasn't enough. But to punish for eternity? What is the benifit of such a judgment? Where is the righeousness in this kind of judgment? In my NKJV they have changed words where world was in place of ages or age! That must have been a wrong translation of aion or aionions. Are there more revisions to come? will you still defend eternity in hell, in the lake of fire when that to has been corrected. With love, Thaddeus Cole. P.S. you need an up-dated concordance!
read your bible and quit typing in kee words my dear. Judgment is used to correct not torture! Read in strong's dictionary where it says design of - Judgments = to correct, to hummble ! It then gives about 30 or 40 scriptures to reference. I don't think you will read them but there it is for your seeing. With love, Thaddeus Cole
Thad, you said, "Do you think that James4:4-5 is saying not to love or be the friend of the people of the world or the things in the world such as evil, lust, self-righteousness, etc." God's Word says we are not to love (agape) the world, as in close attachment and friendship (embracing them as we do God Himself), for this is hostility toward God. We love (agapao) the sinner and hate the sin. You read it, and the Word is clear.
You said, "God's JUDGMENTS make us hummble, meek. They let us know who is in control. When we feel proud they bring us low. That is purification. If not it is PUNISHMENT for no reason."
Judgment is not discipline or purification.
Judge is the Greek word krino (kree'-no); prop. to distinguish, i.e. decide (mentally or judicially); by impl to try, condemn, punish:-avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think.
Discipline (Chasten) is the Greek word paideuo (pahee-dyoo'-o); to train up a child, i.e. educate, or (by impl) discipline (by punishment):-chasten (-ise), instruct, learn, teach.
Where your doctrine errs, seriously, is to think one can be saved through the Lake of Fire judgment. That is a gross error, and will cause the damnation (judgment) of many who simply reject the Word of the Lord in this life, for they will have no other chance after they physically die.
Use the Bible, and the Concordance to look up the Hebrew and Greek words as I did. That should supercede any extra-Biblical book, especially if it contradicts the definitions of the original languages as shown in the Strongs Concordance or any other reliable concordant dictionary.
I have given you you def. of agape and agapao from, once again I will say strongest strong's exhaustive concordence of the bible! They are the same definition. Did you read my first comment it was word for word out of strong's? Agape also has, love feast, the common meal shared by christians in connection with church meetings. Other than that there is no difference between the two! Both state,even enemies! What are you reading? With love,Thaddeus Cole
They are two different words with different meanings. If God had wanted them to be the same, He would have used the same Greek word. I also wrote, word for word, out the Strong's Comprehensive Concordance. Regardless of what you believe, the correct type of love to have for the world (the unbeliever) is not to love them equally with or more than God. Believers are said to be adopted into the family of God, so while we can love our neighbors, they are still not family. Strangers to God do not call Him Abba, Father.
Romans 8:15 "For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"
Galatians 4:7 "Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God."
Jesus Himself does not even pray for the "world", but for His children, as shown in John 17:9 "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours."
Once again you have left out a comment that I made. So I will restate it for you. Under the word jugdments in the strongest strong's exhaustive concordance of the bible it states. Design of: To correct, to humble. I am sorry if you do not understand but when you ask what something has to do with something else or when you give the definition of a word or words that are not right you will be answered. The gaul of you to say that I read some extra biblical book when I gave you what I read. With love, Thaddeus Cole
No carrie they are not! According to what I read they are different words with the same meaning. Do you have the strongest strong's or an older version? That may be your problem! You need a revised edition, or corrected edition. When was yours published? I would hate to disagree because of a revision problem. With love, Thaddeus Cole
forgive them Father, for they not what they do? What does that imply? That he prays for people who do not believe of course. With love, Thaddeus Cole
Thad, I apologize for missing one of your comments and have posted it at well. Regarding the Strongs Dictionary ~ here's the online version for all readers to see for themselves. If you can find an online version showing me what you are stating, I will be more understanding of why you think as you do.
Here's the link to look up #2919 (judge) in the Strong's Greek Dictionary: http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstr
Here's the link to look up #3811 (discipline): http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstr
Here's the link to look up agapao and agape love (#25 and 26): http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstr
It is exactly as I have written, but not as you've stated. What, has L. Ray Smith re-written the dictionary, too? Aren't they re-writing the very Bible into the Concordant Literal Translation? That's an abominiation!!!
The Jews put Jesus on the cross, and they are His chosen ones, His brethren. Understanding this, He would pray on their behalf. The only nation the Bible states ALL will be saved is Israel. Romans 11:26 states, "All Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." Thus, the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" ~ to save all of Israel.
The Bible, when properly studied, does NOT contradict itself. Your founder, however, seems to believe it does, which is false. He/They is/are choosing to re-write the very Word of God to their own interpretation!!
Carrie, I have given you the name, page, def. Me nor L. Ray Smith have writen this book or the NIV compact dictionary of the bible but it doesn't jive with what you say. I'm sure there is a bible bookstore or online version of the strongest strong's exhaustive concordance of the bible that you can get. I'm sure that some of your readers will. If your dictionary has been revised carrie then you need to know what has changed! Again, what I read from was the strongest strong's exhaustive concordance of the bible. Now look in that one. If there is a different def. Than what you have then it is a problem of revision and you need to know which came first. The last being the most reliable. Can you understand that. If you can't and refuse to read the book I have listed then we have nothing to gain by this exchange. See I have both, actually 3 of strong's books and the one I read is the newest hince the name strongest strong's exhaustive concordance. I'm not going to argue with you. When you post a comment that I know to be false I will expose it. That is to keep the ones God chooses from being deceived. Me and you both have a mission from God but they surely are very different ones I am afraid. With love, Thaddeus Cole
Do you proof read? you said the reason Jesus prayed what He did was because they were jews. No carrie the romans put Jesus on the cross! Yes the jews had a hand in it to but there were more people there besides the jews. If you know the bible we have been grafted in. Boy when God blinds He really blinds um. You say my founder, You must be talking about my Lord and Saviour Jesus the Christ! The scripture does not contridict but people like you do. Just go through and read all the comments you wrote. Although you probally will not see.Just read what I've put before you? You will not but someone who comes along will. You won't because you feel you are right, so what will it hurt unless you are wrong. I read your study tool. Not very exhaustive is it. Go and read if you have the time then tell me what you've read. Both are writen by James strong,ll.d., s.t.d. So there could not be a difference could there. Just like the KJV bible many revisions go into it. With Love, Thaddeus Cole
No my dear they are studing everything they can get there hands on not the back of the KJV bible. they are studing and finding mistranslations just as God would have them. You can not read one thing and think you know all. Studt to show thyself approved. If you do not have honest study then you are in jeapordy of being wrong as you are. With love, Thaddeus Cole
Hmmmm....the charge for which Jesus was crucified was for claiming to be "King of the Jews" and his cross had a sign posted on it with those words, and He had a crown of thorns on his head to mock Him. The Romans did not bring the charge against Jesus, but the Jewish leaders. Jesus does not contradict Himself either. He did not pray for the world, per the Bible verse given to you, but for those who are His. He has not forgiven the whole world. He made the propitiation for their sin, but until they submit to Him, accepting Him as their Lord and Savior, they are not forgiven, nor are they saved. There is no salvation after death.
What you are doing and those of your doctrine, is trying to find anything and everything that you can use to cause confusion to Bible-believing Christians (impossible to confuse us), confusion to the lost (most possible), and twisted documentation to support your twisted doctrine (thus, why you stay deceived).
We HAVE NO MORE TO DISCUSS, Thad. We are on two different sides of salvation. I am a born-again, Bible-believing, saved Christian; you are an L. Ray Smith follower, who is a representative of the Twisted Serpent. Sorry, Thad, but you are grossly deceived ~ nothing I have stated to you is getting through, and the "god of this world" (Satan) is still blinding your eyes so you don't see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ. I pray God has mercy upon you.
Just as an added confirmation, Thad, Jesus said in Matthew 16:24 "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Gentiles, including the Roman soldiers, must be grafted in. We are called the "wild olive tree"; the Jews are called the "cultivated olive tree". For more information on this, see the hub on Judah's Daughter called "The ELECT of God". Jesus said, in John 3:7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'"
Carrie, the Jews were to be a type and shadow of the true elect of Christ. Christ was sent to save the world. However, the house of Israel represents the chosen who will reign with Christ for the milinium. Obviously, most of the Jews from that time on will not be in the first ressurection. But the true (and I do mean true) believers of the last 2000 years are the spiritual Jews. When Christ asked that all be forgiven, He was speaking of all mankind. Because of His great sacrifice, all have been forgiven for all sins. However, this does not eliminate the sin. It must be removed. But for mankind to have these sins removed ever, they must first be forgiven. This has happened.
Hell-No, the chosen ones are of the twelve tribes of Israel listed in Revelation 7:4-8. The Gentiles that are "grafted in" are represented in verse 9. Just as the branches of the "cultivated olive tree" (Jews) were "cut off" (Romans 11:24), they must be grafted in again as we who believe, and by the same criteria...to receive the Messiah. Because the cultivated olive tree is only made up of believers, those who are not of that tree will not inherit the kingdom of God. Mat 7:19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
You know that all things have been given to Christ Jesus. If I give my entire field to my son, will he not separate the wheat from the tares? If he burns the entire field, the wheat will come up stronger and so will the tares. There is no transformation. Fire does not save; the blood of Jesus does, and for only those who receive Him. John 1:12 "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,". Wheat from the Tares can be found in Mat 13.
The New Testament is in His blood, which is shed for MANY (not all will be saved). Mark 14:24 "And He said to them, 'This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.'" A Testament is a will, and the inheritance is for His children only. The devil's children will not inherit the kingdom of God (John 8:44).
Just as Jesus will separate the wheat from the tares, likewise He compares this to sheep and goats. John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;" (that was first the Jew, then to the Gentile). John 10:16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they [who believe] will hear My voice; and they [who believe] will become one flock with one shepherd."
Will all be sheep? Did Jesus lay down his life for sheep AND goats? No. John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." Let's look at the separation of sheep and goats: Mat 25:33 "He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left." Why?
Mat 25:34 "Then the King will say to those on His right [sheep], 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."
Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left [goats], 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;"
what is so complicated about Jesus being the savior of the world and that HE WILL ACCOMPLISH HIS WILL...and that it does NOT please Him to loose ONE! Not ONE! What is so hard to believe about that! He asks US to forgive and forgive and forgive and YET HE is above that commandment and will NOT FORGIVE ultimately?? And that is JUST and that brings GLORY to HIS NAME?? Who's making up what? I very much HATE this "God" that I once believed in and that you still believe in!!!
Magoo, it's easier to believe a LIE than the truth. He says we are to forgive when those who've sinned against us REPENT. In fact, that is the prerequisite for forgiveness in the Bible althroughout. It's obvious you HATE the true God (as you say); maybe that's why He's allowed you to believe such a strong delusion. 2 Thes 2:10-12 "they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness." Are you ready to repent?
Carrie, I've been reading you exchanges for a while. Are you saying that Hell No and Thad are under powerful delusions and are condemned? It seems to me that they also love God and Jesus as much as you do from reading your arguements altho I find their God more humane and loving than yours, carrie. I hope you will continue corresponding because I am learning a lot. I might learn to love this God that you are efending from your different point of views. Yhud and Hell No, please continue to discuss.
Carrie, you haven't answered hell no's question about your God torturing or tormenting (or whatever) the less informed aborigines or bushmen (or something to this effect) who were not reached by the word of God. Will He really? Just yes or no. Your answer will help me decide whether I can love or have a relationship with your kind of God. Again, just yes or no.
timpaul, God is Who He is, and His Word does not contradict itself. Our image of God must be based on the Word of God, not what we want to believe. Love is an English word that does not reflect what the Bible defines as love. When the Bible states in John 3:16 that "God so loved the world", it is not "agape" love, for if it were, this would contradict James 4:4 "You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God" and John 17:9 when Jesus said, "I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours."
Why is this? Because the word "love" in John 3:16 is not "agape" (the love of God with His children), but "agapao", which is the social, moral, principled sense of love (He provided the only way for all to be saved by His grace), but indeed not all will be saved!! That doctrine fully contradicts the fulness and truth of the gospel.
We may not like the God of the Bible because He will send Satan's children to hell along with their father (see comments above for further scripture on this). However, the Bible prophesies in 2 Timothy 4:3-4 that "the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths."
Truth is not always what we want to hear or believe. We accept it by faith and we know that while we will never please God in and of ourselves, we must have faith in Jesus Christ and the fact that He pleased God alone! Hebrews 11:6 states, "without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." If we don't receive Jesus Christ as our Savior and accept that He already paid the price by accepting this gift and believing on Him and His Word, we will never be saved! God doesn't even HEAR sinners! John 9:31 states, "We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him." What does it mean to do God's will? We can't do it on our own ~ ever! Jesus did it perfectly! If we don't have the blood of Christ covering our sin by accepting this sacrifice, God does not even hear us! When we believe in Jesus Christ and accept His sacrifice for us, He fills us with His Holy Spirit and will help us to accomplish God's will in our lives, as He did for Jesus. We will never be worthy of ourselves! We can't pay the price for our sin in a fire! We are not worthy to pay for our own sin. Jesus is the only worthy One ~ "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain!" (Revelation 5:4-12)
Now, regarding the less informed aborigines or bushmen (or something to this effect) who were not reached by the word of God, I thought I had addressed this. Jesus addressed it in John 15:22, "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin." Because we are saved by grace through faith, and faith comes by hearing the Word of God, one cannot obtain the drawing by God or the faith in Christ without hearing the Word of God and are therefore without sin. However, when someone does hear the Word of God, he is drawn unto the Savior by this Word and must decide to receive it or reject it, for he is without excuse at that point.
I trust this gainfully answered your questions. God bless you, and I pray you receive and embrace the truth in Jesus' most precious name, amen.
No, carrie, it did not. I really just want to hear a yes or no from you. My question was so simple: Will your God torture them for all eternity?
Okey let me ask you a similar one for this is closer to my heart. I am a product of a Higaonon tribe in my country Philippines. I am now a city boy tho. My grandparents were the leaders of our tribe. I remembered how they were looked up to by our people for simply being good. Because of them there was peace and the people were never hungry and never have to worry about tribal feuds for my grandpa was also a good statesman. Sadly, though, they were never reached by your gospel. I don't remember missionaries going to our place in the boondocks. They died natural deaths without ever hearing or receiving this Jesus of yours.
Will your God torment them for eternity, carrie? Again this is a simple question that can be answered by a yes or a no. Your answer will help me decide whether I will embrace your message.
Thud and hell no, What will your God do to my grandparents?
You also did not answer my question if you are saying that Thud and Hell No are under pwerful delusions. Again just a yes or no. This would tell me something about your heart, carrie.
I am in search of spiritual truths...
The Bible says that the One who sows good seed (people who bear the fruit of feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, opening their homes, visiting those in prison, etc.) is Jesus. These are not guilty of religious works either because they have no religion or do things out of a wrong or selfish motive.
The one who sows bad seed is the Devil (people who bear the fruit of lawlessness). If your grandparents never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ, they are not guilty of rejecting Him. God's Word says so. They are without sin, the Word says. Therefore, they are in God's presence now and for all eternity.
I don't like the subject of Hell any more than anyone else. God is the ultimate Judge and Jesus said the Word of God is what will judge us on the last day. Those who receive the gospel of Jesus Christ ~ that He is the only begotten Son of God, who created all things, and became flesh to die on the cross and shed His blood FOR OUR SIN, and rose again from the dead, are saved! We are not to be shaken of this truth by any false doctrine. When we come to know God because we have faith in Him and thus, He reveals Himself to us, we are not moved. We are saved now and for all eternity.
Truly, there are those who simply reject the gospel if they have even a thought that loved ones may not have been saved. Do they want to join them? The sad truth is, but is the truth nonetheless, we are not to place our loved ones above God. God can heal the hurts and will bring us into the truth. Please have faith.
I can tell you, if any of our loved ones didn't go to heaven, they would desperately want us to go to heaven! How much worse it would be to think we wouldn't!! Thus, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. While the rich man was in torment, he begged that someone would tell his brothers (who were still living) the gospel so they wouldn't end up there. Be blessed.
Thad and Hell-No are under a false doctrine/teachers. Unless they love their doctrine and teachers more than God, they have hope of salvation for as long as God gives them breath. Each man has an appointed time to die, according to the Word. I have an appointed time, and so do they. Jesus did, too. Satan tried to kill Jesus many times before His appointed time; so God is truly in control of that decision. While I still have a breath left in me, I care about them ~ to share the gospel and know I did my best ~ because I love them as God loves them.
If they are sold out to believing a lie, God's Word says that He sends them a strong delusion to believe a lie ~ their fate of judgment is sealed. I'm hoping that's not the case at this point! I'm here to minister the truth to anyone who comes. Obviously, they are still open for discussion.
I believe correct interpretation of God's Word does not return VOID. I pray sincerely that God will rescue those deceived by false doctrines/teachers from the "god of this world" who is blinding them. Jesus came to save the lost, and His children's purpose is the same!!
Only the Holy Spirit can draw all who hear the gospel; my calling is to share the gospel and pray that their ears will "hear" and their eyes will "see" so that their hearts receive Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord. Please, Lord ~ in Jesus' most holy Name that is above ALL names ~ AMEN.
Is that a no? He will not be tormenting them? Whew! what a relief. At least my grandparents, by not being presented with the gospel (which they might have or could have rejected, i dont know), are in heaven for simply being good. Thats really good news. Please tell me more.
But wait, I forgot to mention to you that in our tribe we worhipped forest gods, river gods and field gods. We even do rituals for the dead that they might have a better life in the next. Well, we did not know of this Jesus or this God of yours. Nobody went up to us to tell us.
Will they still be in heaven, carrie? Or will they be tormented by your God?
If they worshipped the creation rather than the Creator, or if they worshiped other gods, they were not saved. How could they create gods for themselves, if they had no knowledge of God? Do you know for a fact they never had instinctive knowledge of the Creator? That would contradict God's Word. Even without the gospel of Jesus Christ, they would know God, their Creator!
This isn't going to be pleasant to hear, but the truth must be told: Romans 1:20 states, "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--His eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."
Adam and Eve didn't have a gospel or Jesus Christ as Savior. They knew the Creator instinctively. God is Spirit (John 4:24) so they never "saw" God. They knew Him as we know Him. Had they (and yes, their descendents did as your tribe) worshiped the creation or other gods rather than the Creator God, they also would not receive the salvation of God. In their case, they knew God and chose to obey Satan. Even though they were sorry, they couldn't atone for their sin. That's why Jesus had to come to pay for their sin and all who will repent! He redeems us back to God!
Romans 1:25 states, "For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen." If you have done these things, you have the choice not to continue to disobey your Creator God. You can be fully forgiven because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross!! Erased!! You must believe. Have faith in Jesus Christ and God's Word.
God's first commandment is this: "You shall have no other gods before Me". Instinctively, people know there's a God. Satan is the god of this world. If he convinced your grandparents that creation is to be worshiped, or even other gods, and they didn't listen to the prompting and instinctive knowledge of their Father, the One who created them, they are without excuse. The Bible says so.
I could only answer you based on the information you gave ~ all of this was not mentioned until now. So what will you do? Continue in the tradition of worhip of created things and false gods? If so, you face the same fate. And, you have also heard the gospel. God's Word was in the beginning with God and was God. His Word became flesh and dwelt among us. That Word is Jesus Christ. (John 1) God never changes. I'm really sorry ~~ I can imagine this is not what you wanted to hear.
The Universalist doctrine would now teach you that your grandparents are being saved by a fiery purification process until God decides they've suffered enough and they can go to heaven. That is not scripturally sound. We cannot save ourselves by paying for our own sin through fire. Jesus already paid the price IN FULL. He is standing at the door to your heart and knocking. If you hear His voice and open the door, He will come into you and dine with you and you with Him. The Bible says so. And no one can snatch you out of His hand! His grace is greater than all our sin. NO SUFFERING in FIRE of any sort!
If your grandparents were truly innocent, God would KNOW! I'm not the JUDGE! I just know what the Word says and can only answer you by that Word. HELL IS REAL. God is obviously drawing you to Him, or you wouldn't be seeking.
Seek Him and you will find Him! He will hear your prayers because you earnestly seek Him! The Bible says so! Don't give up. He loves you!
So your God will be torturing them for eternity because they did not know Jesus? Nobody told them. Their worship of their gods were already in their culture before they were born. Why didnt your God chose to have them born in America or somewhere were they will continually be exposed to this gospel of yours. Or at least born into a tribe where there is no pagan worship. At least they will surely go to heaven for simply being good people even if they did not hear of this Jesus of yours. Its unfair. I love them so much. My grandpa used to bring me to hunt deer and wild pigs. I guess God favored some because they were born into areas where this gospel is being preached everyday.
I still believe its not fair for your God , Carrie, to be tormenting my oldfolks. They did not get the same chance as you. I don't know. I am just devastated right now.
Again I just want a clear confirmation from you. Just a simple yes or no. Will your God, Carrie, torture my lola and lolo (grannies) for eternity?
Hello, carrie? You still did not answer my last post.
Anyway, from your first answer I get the thought that since my grandparents would have been saved by virtue of their being good had they not worship other gods, then should it be that you people should stop sending missionaries to unreached people? It is a fact that more people reject Christ than those who receive him. I believe you will be giving more people a chance to go to your heaven by not preaching to them.
Pleae forgive my delay. Jesus is our ever present help in times of sorrow and trouble. He is there for you every moment; just reach out to Him. I understand where you're coming from. My point is, people are created as spiritual as well as physical beings. Innately, we know there is a God, our Creator according to the Word. Only God knows whether your grandparents simply worshiped other gods out of innocense or intention. He knows the hearts of people.
Many who hear the gospel reject it because they believe man gets to heaven by good works. That is a twisting of the truth. Our righteousness is as "filthy rags", the Bible says. There is none righteous but Christ Jesus alone. If one has never heard the gospel, the Word says they have no sin. I am earnestly thinking that would include all kinds of sin (including UNintentional pagan god worship) ~ for, how would they know otherwise? God says all people KNOW He is the Creator from the get-go, but only He knows them! Again, that's my heart-felt thoughts on the matter, but I am not God. He is a righteous judge. He created them and knows their hearts.
Jesus told us to go into all the world and preach the gospel. I actually went to the Philippines on a missionary trip with Philippino-Americans, bringing the gospel in the Tagalog language. We also provided medical care and music. Hundreds received the gospel with joy and thanksgiving! There are other missionaries there as well ~ they actually live there. Those who received the gospel have assurance in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior. Death looms over so many there because of natural disasters; many live at the base of volcanoes or are victims of hurricanes. Some live in trash dumps and are living with disease. Jesus loves them and wants to assure them that this life is but a breath compared to eternity in heaven. He gives us hope and comfort; I will pray He gives you hope and comfort, timpaul.
Each man must stand before God one day; each man is accountable to Him. If we receive the gospel, Jesus stands in our place! Without Jesus, we stand on our own, judged according to our deeds. It is not possible to get to know Jesus without faith. Ask Him to hear your prayers; come into your heart; and He will bring healing to you. His presence will be with you and comfort you all the days of your life. I am but human and I wish I had all the answers ~ for that reason, I must rely on the Bible until He comes again. 1 Corinthians 13:12 states we only see through the glass dimly right now; but then, we shall see Him face to face. He's coming soon ~ I hope to meet you there!
Remember, there is no mourning or grieving in heaven. He will wipe away every tear from our eyes. There is no more pain or sorrow. We will know peace, joy and love beyond measure.
So there really is no assurance if one is saved or not. Still ONLY YOUR GOD KNOWS THOSE WHO ARE TRULY HIS. No one really has the inside info of who He is going to save or not.
As to my grandparents, are you saying that if they worshipped their gods out of innocence they will be excused? At least thats what I get from what you said.
If it is true that there is no mourning in heaven, will you just (or will your God wipe out all memories of your loved ones or friends) forget all the loved ones you have who God is torturing in His hell? For sure not all of your loved ones or friends will be in heaven with you.
I look forward to your coming here, Carrie. I might even bring you to our tribe in the boondocks or to what was left of the place.
Peace!
Yes, there is assurance! I will share with you the scriptures the Lord has laid on my heart for you now:
1 John 5:13 "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life."
John 10:28 "I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."
Romans 8:38-39 "For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Revelation 21:4 "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
I cannot know for sure about your grandparents, but have spoken what was on my heart. If you want assurance for yourself, there is assurance! Please read my hub on Judah's Daughter (my other profile) called "Come to JESUS: Salvation". It is REAL, my brother. He is REAL. You will know!! He will comfort you!! He never goes against His Word and you can stand on His Word each and every moment!!
I wish I could come to see you and where your tribe once lived. My heart is with you, for God loves you and so do I!
But still I could not possibly have a relationship with your God who may be frying and tormenting my grandparents forever and ever. I don't understand what is so sound about that, Carrie. I am so sorry.
So the good deeds of my grandparents are not "filthy rags"?
Isaiah 64:6 states, "For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away."
Ephesians 2:8-9 state, "For by grace you have been saved through FAITH; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS, so that no one may boast."
Timpaul, we are not gods, in that we can usurp His Word by choosing our own will above His. We are created by Him and for Him. He is the righteous Judge, and Jesus is the sacrifice for our sins. Without Jesus Christ, we stand condemned. It's His Word and we cannot refute God. If you choose to be angry with God because you don't like His Word, you are choosing to reject your Lord and Savior. It truly is your choice, a choice which you have until your appointed time of death and judgment comes.
Hebrews 9:27 states "it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment"
He made the way ~ why let Satan claim your soul? We don't know if your grandparents are in heaven ~ but we do know that if they NEVER heard the gospel and didn't know better, the Word says they are without sin. What if they ARE in heaven? Are you not going there because you assume the worst?
This ALL has to do with your grandparents. It appears you love them more than you love God, your Creator and Savior ~ (they are gone and can never do anything for you again). Please think about that. I cannot save you ~ your heart has to lead you to repentance (turn away from your anger) and receiving Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. There is no other way.
John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.'"
So its all about saving our own selves now without thinking of others? For as long as we are saved ourseleves "to hell with others"(if I may borrow a common American expression)? In the story of the Lazarus man, if I will end up in heaven, I will be seeing my grannies in hell suffering forever. I answered my own previous question which you did not care to answer, Carrie, about whether one remembers his or her loved ones and friends in hell.
The reason why I can not have a relationship with your God, Carrie, is because He is not reliable as you presented Him to me.
In my first few questions, you said my grandparents are in heaven because of their being good. Now you are telling me their good works are like filthy rags. So even if they did not worship other gods (innocently or not- another confusion. Is there really an innocent worship?) they would have been tormented forever by your God anyway. Which is which now, Carrie? I am confused.
Carrie, I will say this with a heavy heart- I will rather be in hell with my dear old grandparents than spend eternity with your God in heaven. From what you said I am now sure they are there because they did not know your Jesus (no other name by which men will be saved, right?).
It seems to me that your gospel brings more people to hell than to heaven. "We don't know if your grandparents are in heaven ~ but we do know that if they NEVER heard the gospel and didn't know better, the Word says they are without sin."
ITS MUCH BETTER NOT TO LET PEOPLE HEAR OF YOUR GOSPEL. More people reject than receive it.
Which brings me to this conclusion (again from your answer): If people are saved even without hearing the gospel for they did not know better as you said, then what is the purpose of Jesus dying (the gospel, right?)? I hope you see my point, Carrie. I guess your God made me inquisitive and to not accept anything without weighing things in their proper perspective.
Peace to you, Carrie.
YOU NEGLECT WHAT I SAID ABOUT YOUR GRANDPARENTS: IF THEY NEVER HEARD THE GOSPEL IS THE PREREQUISITE!! NOT GOOD OR BAD WORKS!!! Would you rather God had no mercy? That He just let all evil doers into heaven? Well, Man screwed that up, my friend. We sinned after knowing God, and that sin is in our DNA. We must be made pure by accepting the sacrifice for our sin.
Keep in mind that Hades is just the temporary hell; it is not the eternal Lake of Fire. The Bible says they will be tormented in the presence of the angels and the Lamb, not the children of God! He does not contradict His Word! And the Bible only accounts for this conversation between the rich man and Abraham, not Lazarus; it is assumed that Lazarus saw the rich man in torment.
It sounds to me like your grandparents are your god, for you place them above God to your own demise. By the testimonies of those who went to hell and lived again to tell about it, it is a place of isolation from "loved ones" ~ isolation from love of any sort.
What do you mean we are saved and don't care about others? Why do you think I'm here talking to YOU? And OTHERS? If salvation were just for me and I didn't care, I wouldn't have the heart of Christ ~ that is the evidence of salvation!
God is God. If I didn't present Him to your satisfaction, perhaps another of His children will. I did my best and that I can say when I stand before my Lord.
"it is assumed that Lazarus saw the rich man in torment." exactly my point, Carrie. You also will be seeing your loved ones and friends who did not make it to heaven, Carrie, and see them being tormented by your God who is also beside you in heaven. Haven't you thought of that, too? I hope all your loved ones make it, Carrie.
My grandparents are my god? How could you say that? Its just that I love them more than the God you presented to me, Carrie, that's why I said I am willing to spend eternity with them in hell than with your God in heaven. At least I can comfort them and they me in hell. If I accept your Jesus, how could I comfort my frail lolo and lola in heaven while they suffer in your God's hell(in the presence of the Lamb-Jesus, right?)? NO, CARRIE, I JUST LOVE THEM MORE FOR THEY WERE THERE PHYSICALLY WITH ME WHEN I NEEDED THEM. In hell, where your God will torture them, it will be my turn to be a jesus to them (since your Jesus will not do anything for them there) by comforting them. In the first place, they were there by default. They were also without excuse as you said. Your merciful God did not favor them and gave them as much chance as you.
I am so sorry, Carrie. As I have told you I am so devastated right now. I came to this sight looking for comfort. Now my burden is more unbearable than before. You tried your best. Thank you. But it seems to me that this aspect of your God- that of being an eternal tormentor to both rapist, murderers, doubters and frail old people (who were good but who happens to worship what you call idols) alike, you yourself are not so sure of (or maybe not proud- as children feel of their fathers)
I asked you a simple question which pretty much will tell me your heart about your Daddy in heaven: Will He torture forever my lolo and lola, or bushmen, etc... for worshiping idols? You have to answer with so many words that I lost your heart, when a simple yes or no would have suffice. Why can't you just say "Yes".
Again, I apologized. Peace!
By the way, the thinking of others thing is not only in this world, Carrie. I was projecting to the next life which will affect the way we behave in this life and lead us to ask the right questions to whoever higher being we are serving right now.
"assumed" and "will" are two totally different things. Will is absolute; assumed is seeing through a glass dimly, but not knowing for sure (1 Corinthians 13:12).
You think you're able to comfort anyone in hell? If that were so, it would not be a place of torment. As I said, for those who've experienced hell (and if you want to hear a testimony, go to my Judah's Daughter profile here on hubpages and read the "HELL: Sheowl, Hades, Tartaroo, Geenna" hub. There is an hour-long testimony by Bill Wiese who went to hell and came back to tell us about it. He testifies is a place of isolation away from love of any sort; nor can you show love to anyone. It is the antithesis of love, for Satan is the god of hell and Satan is a thief, murderer and destroyer. God's presence is not there at all.
The choice for salvation or damnation is yours until the day you breath your last breath. I can't give you a Yes or No when it comes to your grandparents or whether we can see people in Hades (hell) from Paradise (the third heaven). I do know only Jesus and the angels are said to be able to see the Lake of Fire from the New Heaven and New Earth, per the Bible.
If you love God, you love His Word. If you love your grandparents more than God, the Bible says you are not worthy to be His disciple (follower/student) and you are hostile toward God. This is your choice. If Satan has you believing you will experience love for and with your grandparents in hell (if they even went to hell? ~ Satan would really be stoked if your grandparents are in heaven and you thought otherwise, sending yourself to hell) ~ now that would be torment for you, wouldn't it? There's no coming out of hell once you're there.
See, I don't tell you what you want to hear. I tell you the truth. Even if you don't believe it's the truth; truth never changes. You can't argue with God or blame God for your choices. He made the way to the Father and offers you eternal life, where we will experience love with Him and all the saints! It is not a place of isolation and torment. Hell, again, is the antithesis of heaven.
I'm sorry about not knowing where your grandparents are. I could only give you the Word of God. According to what you've told me and the information in the Bible, they could be on either side. How will you know? That's got to be something, as it is the criteria for whether you get saved or not...I guess you're going to have to decide whether you love Jesus more than your grandparents.
Your grandparents were created by God. Your tribe chose to worship the creation rather than the Creator, right? Do you see why I said you've made your grandparents your gods? Again, Romans 1:25 states, "For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen."
My Understanding is L. Ray Smith has no Followers???
He has no Church and has only a website that shares is understanding of the Scriptures. I lso conclude that he uses no-other out-side source for his belief other than the scriptures alone??? Nor has this web-site of yours been able to prove other-wise. Show me one out-side source or book that shows L. Ray Smith belonging to or spouting non biblical information???
PuttB, L. Ray Smith's INTERPRETATION of the BIBLE is CORRUPT. It doesn't matter whether he uses outside sources or not. Satan did not use any other source but the Word of God either when he tempted Eve and Jesus. He twisted the Words to change the truth into a LIE. Otherwise, he would be too obviously known as ANTI-CHRIST.
What a cruel God you have, Carrie. Makes me wonder if you are much like Him so let me ask you this question: If it all depends on you, Carrie, would you send your enemies to your Christian burning hell to be tortured for ever and ever without even the benefit of dying? Again, a simple yes or no would give me the greatest satisfaction. It would greatly help if you would try to put your finger in a burning candle and see how many seconds can you endure. Remember, this is the character of your merciful and loving God we are talkling here, Carrie.
In a nutshell, carrie this what I have learned so far: God had to kill Himself to appease Himself so that He would not have to roast us, His beloved creations, in HELL forever. He loves us more than we can ever comprehend, but if we don’t return His affections, He will make us regret it for eternity. Wow!
Is that what you call sound (fair, logically defensible, morally acceptable) doctrine, Carrie? Again, a simple yes or no would give me great satisfaction (so far you haven't given me that benefit that I always lost your heart through your wordy answers), carrie.
Remember again we are talking about the character of your god, carrie.
Matthew 12:30 "He who is not for Me is against Me", the Lord says. He who is not for God is not "His beloved". I am not God. God says He will cast all those against Him into the Lake of Fire. So, to ask me if I would do as God would do ~ I do the will of my Father for He is in me and I in Him (John 14:17). It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me (Galatians 2:20). Anyone who hates me hates my Father also, for He doesn't know my Father (John 15:18-21). You may think I am being hateful, but if you were in the Lord you would not falsely accuse me of such things. If you hate the Word of God, you hate God. You are not with God or for God. Have I become your enemy because I tell you the truth? (Galatians 4:16).
It's interesing your name is timpaul, for the Apostles Paul and Timothy were mightily used of the Lord to spread this gospel of Jesus Christ by which we live until He comes again. Paul also said, "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!"
Paul wrote to Timothy in 1 Timothy 4:1, "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons" and in 2 Timothy 4:3, "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths."
So, while you don't want to believe in Hell, the demons know it is real. They don't want you coming to the Father through Jesus Christ and thus they cause you to believe there is somehow "comfort of one another in hell", or that there is no such thing as Hell, or to hate God because there is a HELL. The worst of it is, if you believe you will be saved after death, like this L. Ray Smith group, you won't have a second chance. Satan will have won your soul. Anything that stands against God's truth is of the father of lies ~ Satan.
So you are much like your father in heaven. At least I know your heart now. I would not send a mad dog to your hell, Carrie.
I don't hate your God, Carrie. Where did you get that notion? I just can't love him by the way you represented him. If that's the truth, as you say, then so be it. I can not love him (an eternal torment god). That doesn't mean I hate him? In fact by what you are not directly stating I am learning more about Him. I am just questioning if He is really what most christians purports him to be. I think, He is more than what you think. I look up the sky and stars at night and see the beauty of these things. If your God is really the creator, then I just don't see where your eternal hell fits in. I see the creator, whoever he is, as powerfuland one with a good purpose. My grandpa taught me that. Even the bad things that happens now. Mabe my lolo discovered something about this god that we don't. We call that God, Magbabaya- or God who blesses.
Thats why I also find contradictions in what christians are saying.
Consider these: He asks you to forgive your enemies, but he won't? Or his forgiveness has time limits.
You like to say that he is merciful, but his mercy ends only after death? Will he stop being merciful after death? I can just picture your lamb (jesus) just standing there while most of His creation are tormented. So he is not the same yesterday, today and forever as you people like to say. He would not even lift a finger to comfort? I don't understand what's sound about that.
You like to sing "God is good all the time." More like "god is good only in this life"
Carrie, I ask this with a heavy heart. Is your relationship with your god borne more of coercion (the fear of hell) than out of genuine love?
So,okey, carrie, you would send your enemies that did not have the willpower as you do to your hell. How about acquaintances, friends and love ones that did not decide for your Jesus? Would you also send them, Carrie, if its all up to you?
NO, CARRIE, YOU HAVE NOT BECOME MY ENEMY.Have I? for doubting the character of your cruel god (He is who he says he is, right? So we better toe the line)? At least you were honest enough to reveal how you have become like your papa above by your truth that you told me. Some of your brothers and sisters are not that open and honest like you. You call that hypocrisy, right?
As to timpaul, yes maybe that has some reasons. Its the influence of christians on my parents. But thats another topic. Glad you discover it, though. I've been reading your bible and so far I did not read about this Paul expounding on your christian hell as much as you do. Well, I have to read some more.
Peace, Carrie. BTW, are you the actress?
Timpaul, looks like your comment appeared three times. You stated, "I see the creator, whoever he is, as powerful and one with a good purpose. My grandpa taught me that. Even the bad things that happens now. Mabe my lolo discovered something about this god that we don't. We call that God, Magbabaya- or God who blesses." It surely sounds like God's Word is true here...that your grandparents knew there was a God, the Creator, but didn't know His name. His name is YHWH (Yehovah Elohiym, which means LORD God).
To love our enemies is to tell them the truth and be kind to them as Jesus was. To forgive our enemies releases us of anger that will otherwise give place to the Devil in our hearts. The way we treat our enemies gives them a taste of God's grace and will hopefully draw them unto salvation. That is the purpose. Jesus said He came as a Man not to judge the world (we are in the age of grace until He comes again). However, He said that anyone who does not receive His sayings has one who judges Him ~ the Word He spoke will judge him on the last day. He is still drawing by grace now; but wrath and judgment is coming.
You wondered if I was coerced into salvation? NO. I felt the love of God as soon as I heard of Him and I responded with thanksgiving and love. I had been a foster kid tossed to the wolves of the world and the love of God was welcoming and comforting. I have no fear in this love. Perfect love (when we receive it) casts out fear, the Bible says.
I do not have any more willpower than anyone else. We are not saved by willpower. We believe and receive the Holy Spirit by faith and allow Him to change us from the inside out. Because of this, we are saved every day of this life and the next. God is good to us in this life and the next.
I hope that answers some of your questions, and I am encouraged that you are reading the Bible. The Holy Spirit can speak to you for Himself when you read it! God bless you.
I'm going to be away for a few days, so I'll get back to you when I return next week.
So, god is good all the time to those who are only good to him also. Thats the sense I get. How about mercy, Carrie? Will it be limited to time too?
How about acquaintances, friends and love ones that did not decide for your Jesus? Would you also send them to your hell, Carrie, if its all up to you?
Not to decide is to decide. Innocence is what it is and God is the judge. The parable of the wheat and the tares tells us that the rain falls on the just and the unjust during this age of grace. It will be so until the Reapers come (the angels) who will separate the wheat from the tares (sheep from the goats). Only Jesus can change a tare into wheat (or a goat into a sheep) while His grace (the life-giving rain) falls upon us all.
You can't see through God's eyes and the wisdom of man is foolishness to God. We don't even know what God knows, so how can we question Him? We will understand when we see Him face to face. I pray you have a blessed Thanksgiving.
timpaul, the Lord put John 3:3-7 on my heart for you:
"Jesus answered and said to him, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, UNLESS one is born again, he CANNOT see the kingdom of God.' Nicodemus said to Him, 'How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?' Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, UNLESS one is born of water (mother) and the Spirit (God), he CANNOT enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirt. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You MUST be born again.'"
Notice UNLESS, CANNOT and MUST. If you want to know what it means to be "born of the Spirit" or "born again", please read my hub on Judah's Daughter called "Come to Jesus: SALVATION": http://hubpages.com/hub/Come-to-JESUS-Salvation
Remember that works do not save us and never will. We are saved by unmerited favor (grace) through faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. He accepts us just as we are and will put His Spirit in us (because we are made holy by His blood). His Spirit will guide us into the truth daily, transforming us into the likeness of Christ, a new creature, until He comes again to take us home. God bless you!
Again I lost your heart thru your wordy answer, carrie? I only need a yes or no.
How about acquaintances, friends and love ones that did not decide for your Jesus? Would you also send them to your hell, Carrie, if its all up to you? Just a yes or no because I want to really know how much of your father's image is in you.
Okey, let me paraphrase: How about acquaintances, friends and love ones who REJECTED your Jesus? Would you also send them to your hell, Carrie, if its all up to you?
Jesus says we are to love Him more than the "world" (even family). If I have acquaintances, friends and loved ones who REJECTED my Jesus, I would be sad in this life only because I know where they are headed. I know I won't feel any pain or sorrow, mourning or tears in heaven. Because I also desire all to be saved as my Father, I am working hours a day sharing the gospel and answering questions for those who seek. I hope that answers your question. Again, I'm going on a trip, so your comments will have to wait until I get back.
Thanks for your "yes" altho you really could not state it with conviction. I know that it pains you. Believe me, I understand you perfectly.
Peace, Carrie.
Yes, and amen, timpaul. If it pains us, think of how it pains our Father in heaven. The shortest verse in the whole Bible is found in John 11:35..."JESUS WEPT." He gave His life; what more could He give. Revelation 3:20 states, "'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me." He loves you; I know He does. God bless you.
The point of the whole mnatter is this. Would God force Himself upon someone? That is called RAPE.
Everyone has to make their own choice. God does not send anyone to hell, they choose to go on their own.
You can not separate your eternal hell from the nature and character of your father. Thats why it pains you. You said, "I don't like the subject of Hell any more than anyone else." Therefore, for eternity, Carrie, you are willing to live with this part, character and nature of your God that you don't like for as long as you don't end up in hell. That's why i ask if you are only into this because of coecion. Truth to tell, your god is no different from hitler, sadam hussein and bin ladin combined.
I think, the creator who made so wonderful a universe is more than what ou think, Carrie.
I am at Timothy now and I still could not read anything about Paul expounding so much about this eternal hell of yours. Is he really a followeer of Jesus? If hell is that horrible, shouldn't he have explained on it more than all the good things I learned about this God of his.
Hi, carrie. I am still waiting for your reply. I hope I have not become your enemy because I pointed out how cruel a god you have and how you have even become so like him. You would even send friends and love ones to your hell if its all up to you if they have rejected your Jesus. No, I dont consider you hateful. You are also what you are because you are just like your dad, so what can I do. If I am deceive by Satan for being rational, so be it(hey, I am just created being and a product of my circumstances. Somebody must have made me this way.).
At least you are so honest with me, Carrie. I just hope all christians are as honest in their convictions as you. Yes, I have christian acquiantances thats why I know a little of your doctrines.
By the way, In my readings, I still haven't read anything about hell being thoroughly expounded by Paul as much as you. Is his message different from Jesus? Or is it lacking?
timpaul, for you to say "Truth to tell, your god is no different from hitler, sadam hussein and bin ladin combined" is to say God terrorizes and kills the innocent. God's Word only addresses those who are "without excuse" when it comes to hell.
While you are focusing on the message of Paul, why not focus on the words of Jesus when it comes to hell? He spoke of hell more than heaven. Again, you'll have to read my hub, "HELL: Sheowl, Hades, Tartaroo, Geenna" to be able to see all the passages pertaining to hell. That hub is on my Judah's Daughter profile.
I'm sorry you didn't remember I said I would be away for a few days for Thanksgiving...I'm still not home, but made some time to get back to you.
timpaul But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise and GOD hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things that are mighty.
To expound on what t.raf just stated, when God chooses the foolish and weak things of the world (any human being that believes in Him), they speak by the wisdom of God, which is greater than all worldly wisdom ~ for the wisdom of man is foolishness to God. While the word "confound" appears to mean "baffle" or "surprise", it actually means "shame". God uses the foolish things of the world to shame the wise men of the world (1 Cor 1:27). Even Satan does not have the knowledge of God. Had he, he wouldn't have crucified Jesus! This is recorded in 1 Cor 2:8. Only God knows all things ~ Satan and his children have limited knowledge; God gives knowledge daily to those who love Him and are in Him. It is a Spiritual gift. Jesus told us about this in John 16:13.
I've always thought it was even cooler than that. Not only does Satan not know everything but when he does know something God works His will anyway. I think that there are plenty of times that God actually makes Satan do things. I know that God knows what Satan will think and takes that into consideration but I think that He also controls Him so that he will say, "There will be a mark" "There will be beheadings" "There will be one currency" etc. God is amazing and OMNISAPIENT (my favorite "omni" of God.) Omnisapient is the ability to work everything to His will even though the opposite is crafted. I love you and am having "withdraws.
Hi brother nobody, what you say opens a whole can of worms for these folks, in that they say if God knows everything, controls everything and everyone, it is His responsibility to save everyone or is to blame when someone isn't saved.
Truly, God knows everything and Satan does not. Satan doesn't know God's next move, as he didn't know he was accomplishing the will of God by crucifying Jesus. Satan has a will and rebelled against God. That was his choice. However, God still trumps Satan's power. Likewise, man has a will and rebels against God. That is his choice. However, God still trumps man and his rebellion as He does Satan...for those who rebel against God are children of the devil. Amazingly, these are they who exalt their knowledge and wisdom above God's, just like their "father".
Bottom line is, God knows Satan's every move and can control Him. Satan does not know God's next move and though he tries to control Him, never will. AMEN.
God bless you ~~ driving home tomorrow. Pray for traveling mercies :-)
I will sis. I've missed you.
hey Sir Dent we got to make a choice you say ,nobody made the choice to be born,God just put us here. Hopefully one day God will reveal to you his truths. God bless
t raf ~ thank God we were born, for we have the hope of eternal life in incorruptible bodies. That proves that eternity is not just an age that ends and begins another. INCORRUPTIBLE! Be thankful you were born. Get saved today! It's a free gift just waiting for you to open it. You just have to open up your heart and let Him in. Amen.
i never said i was not thankful to be born ,but givin the choice i imagine there are plenty of people in this world ,who rather not of been born.Thank God one day these people will be thankful for his gift of life.Amen
I pray so! It's free and available to them ~ from the time they came to hear about our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. I am saddened that some "churches" or "religions" add so much to the gift of salvation that it drives people away from our Lord rather than right into His arms.
Carrie,
Sorry for taking two weeks to respond. Yes, Carrie, Satan did and does twist scripture as he did when tempting Our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ. Jesus then corrected Satan each time with the correct understanding of the scripture. Much the same way L. Ray Smith (And not just him alone) is correcting the historical twisting of scripture by the Catholic Church and the Reformed Protestant Christian Movements.
I mean are there going to be anymore Reformations??? Can you not sense one coming??? How many more times does the King James Version of the Bible need to be literally corrected??? How many revisions have already been done??? More and more Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic Christian Texts are being discovered each decade.
People will clamor for the True Text Meaning word for word. This is a tsunami that will not be stopped. Your blog really shows this when you were debating with Thad, he was sourcing scripture thru a more recent-updated version of Strong's Concordance and it seems you were quoting from or using an out-dated Strong's Concordance.
My point being is that more and more sources of earlier Christian manuscripts are clearly defining and correcting as well as making a more clear understanding of Gods word as oppose to the many manuscripts from a later period that have and were misrepresenting Gods word thru scripture adding, misinterpretation and or if not down right manipulation. Examples: such as the additions of Mark 16:9–20. The misinterpretation of Isaiah 14:12-14. The possible manipulation of verses such as Mathew 18:11 not found in any Modern Translation. These verses were added, misinterpreted or manipulated later than a majority of most historical manuscripts of an earlier period.
All of Christendom will come up against these manuscript dealings of true scriptural understanding. I for one have my own conscience and need no one to tell me what God’s word is or means (Was this not what Martin Luther’s Letter to the Catholic Church was all about?. It changed Religious Thinking on a grand world scale) Although, I am not an L. Ray Smith follower, I believe he is a harbinger of more of this to come and it is a very healthy and good thing!
By the way, my understanding is that L. Ray Smith is saved by the sacrificial blood of Jesus Christ and according to his website he has confessed his sins to the Lord and by Gods grace is saved. He also, on his website, calls for all Men to eagerly come to Christ and to be saved NOW! Not later.
With Love,
Putt B.
Putt B, I hope you're right about L. Ray Smith ~ that he's truly saved and believes people can be and should be saved NOW. However, he has not recanted his false interpretations that man can be saved after physical death, or that man has no choice and there is no hell, let alone eternal anything. Teachers will be held more accountable by God, the Word says. So, I will continue to pray that IF Ray is saved, He will be led by the Holy Spirit to recant his false teachings.
I do not believe the Bible is corrupt. This is the consistent argument of all cults, yet the Word of God does not contradict itself. Like any LIE, once someone decides to change the meaning of one thing, they have to then keep changing and changing and changing the meanings of many things, ending up in a perverted doctrine. What I have stated does not contradict itself. Surely, it contradicts what L. Ray Smith and Universalists believe because their doctrines started with ONE change, then another, then another, then another....etc. etc. etc. I am fairly open-minded, but this stuff is way off the mark and will lead people to damnation, if they believe this twisted stuff...especially that they will be saved, by force, through a Lake of Fire after physical death. That's the most critical of the lies fueled by this doctrine of demons.
I, for one, do not agree that the Catholic church is on the mark in many ways. However, in the most critical of ways (knowing Jesus is God and we are saved by faith through Jesus Christ's shed blood NOW), I don't view them as a "cult".
t raf says:
3 days ago
hey Sir Dent we got to make a choice you say ,nobody made the choice to be born,God just put us here. Hopefully one day God will reveal to you his truths. God bless
SirDent: You are right. We had no choice but to be born. After we are born and come to the knowledge of God, then we make choices. We make them every single day of our lives. God doesn't make our choices for us, nor does He force people to follow Him.
Hi carrie,
Finally, I have finished the bible. It has lots of contradictions. Paul and Jesus dont have the same spirit. Jesus sometimes contradicts himself. I like the writings of paul. You are wrong about your Jesus. He speaks of the kingdom of heaven or God more often than hell. Please count it again. If hell is that eternal and he would just stand there while the enemies of the cross are being tormented, why would he offer the living water at the end of Revelations. Either he contradicts himself or one these truths can be fitted to fit with the other. I am learning, carrie...
Saddam, hitler, hussein tortured both innocents and "those without excuse" alike which is very much like your God. These men will not take no for an answer much like the God that you represent, carrie, and will be spending eternity with.
Well, the fact that your father will torture for eternity makes him like them, don't you think? He is even worst. At least with these men, the torture will end.But your god? ughh!!! And you also, carrie, because you are even willing to send loved ones, friends and acquiantances who are without excuse to your hell. Now I wonder who is being deceived. Really...
timpaul, I believe I said that Jesus spoke more about hell than anyone. The living water spoken of in Revelation is about the New Heaven, New Earth, New Jerusalem. People have the choice to receive Him and drink of the living water, or reject Him and go to hell. That's the summation. This is why He speaks of both. He doesn't contradict Himself, except if you choose to believe the false doctrine that all will be saved. Not all will be saved. Jesus is inviting everyone who will believe into the kingdom of God.
You sure read the Bible quickly. If you weren't drawn to Jesus as Lord, it concerns me. Also, what you perceive as contradictions will take study, in that you need to look up original language (Concordance with Hebrew/Greek Dictionaries) and also look up cross-references to better understand the passage and what it's talking about.
You still sound a bit hostile toward God ~ I pray you what you read will stay with you and that God will confirm His truth to you day by day.
timpaul, Regarding the message of Jesus and the message of Paul, you need to understand that Jesus came to save the lost sheep of Israel. Paul was saved after Jesus rose from the dead and didn't know Him in the flesh. Paul was called to spread the gospel of salvation to the Jews first, then to the non-Jews. The reason the Gentiles were included is due to the Jews' rejection of the Messiah and the gospel. If you recall reading this, they were cut off from the tree of life; the Gentiles were grafted into the tree of life; and yet the Jews can once again be grafted in, IF they receive the gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ. This is how it is for all of us. We're either on the tree or off the tree. Broken branches are like chaff or tares ~ destined for the fire.
Your attitude is still very hostile. Whatever spirit has control of you speaks against the Creator, the God of the universe. When Satan spoke through Peter (and I'm sure you read this, if you read the Bible), Jesus sharply rebuked Peter and spoke directly to Satan. Satan is a liar, is hostile toward God and projects all that he himself is guilty of onto Christ. Satan is a murderer; God gives life. If you are of Satan, you will go where he goes in the end ~ hell. Satan is influencing you and wants you to hate God and end up where he does. God is not sending you there. It's your choice. Hell is not reserved for God's children.
"He spoke of hell more than heaven." This what you said, carrie.
In your effort to defend the cruelty of your god, you were careless in saying that Jesus spoke of hell more than heaven. I hope you can defend that when all of us will account for all the careless words/statements we utter. In the NIV that I am reading, in Matthew alone, Jesus spoke the word hell only seven (7) times. I gave your statement a little leeway so I counted also darkness, fire and fiery furnace and destruction. Only 16 all in all, carrie. I also counted the word heaven and only those that came out of Jesus lips and I reached 55, carrie. I did not even include kingdom, kingdom of God, or even eternal life. Need I count Mark, Luke and John, Carrie. You are wrong, carrie.
I am not hostile towards God. In fact I am beggining to like the God that Paul represents. I am also beggining to understand this Jesus, his heart, when I counted how many times he spoke heaven and hell. Maybe the living water will always be offered until everyone has his fill. The picture is even more beautiful when one realizes that who wouldn't drink water upon being exposed to the fire. Ain't that a little amusing,Carrie?
I don't think you have the spirit of the great shepherd (the living water, right?) who will not leave the 100th sheep behind.
I am hostile towards the god that you represent and preach, carrie.
Yes, I read fast.
Again, I wonder who is of Satan, carrie. If a belief system would make me send my loved ones, friends and acquiantances to endless torture by the very object of my worship because they did not believe as I did, then I don't think that is of God who created the heavens and the earth. Look at the stars at night, carrie, and ask youself: Is my god that cruel?
Peace, carrie.
What I dont like is your version of god, carrie.
Let me say it again, Timpaul: "Jesus spoke about hell more than ANYONE". I did not say He spoke about hell more than heaven.
The Living Water never runs dry, so we will never "have our fill" ~ we will never thirst again. Those who reject the Living Water have no water. In fact, read about a demon that is cast out of someone (even a nation) in Matthew 12:43 "Now when the unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through WATERLESS places SEEKING REST, and does not find it. Then it says, 'I will return to my house from which I came'; and when it comes, it finds it unoccupied, swept, and put in order. Then it goes and takes along with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first. That is the way it will also be with this evil generation." So, the demon found no rest? What is said about hell? Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have NO REST day and night..."
Regarding sheep, Timpaul ~ Remember that there are sheep and goats. Jesus laid down His life for the sheep, for the goats that do not repent (thus are not adopted into the kingdom of God) reject this sacrifice for their sins and therefore, have no sacrifice. This is confirmed in Hebrews 10:26-27 "For if we go on sinning [rejecting Christ] willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES." (Prohecy of Isaiah 26:11) Did you see the words, "If we go on sinning WILLFULLY"? Man has free will, Timpaul.
John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." Let's look at the separation of sheep and goats: Mat 25:33 "He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left."
Mat 25:34 "Then the King will say to those on His right [sheep], 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."
Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left [goats], 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;"
Paul was an Apostle to the Jews first, but when they rejected the gospel, he took it to the Gentiles (us). Romans 9:1-3 shows you that Paul felt a burden for his people (Paul was Jewish) because they rejected the gospel. If he knew all of them would be saved anyway, he wouldn't have such anguish! Read his words here:
"I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit—I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel."
To be cursed is to be away from Christ. He understood the pain of imagining one's mother and father and uncle and children being outside of Christ. Paul was willing to go to hell, if it were possible, so that his kinsmen may be saved. He clearly understood hell as well as heaven.
See, once a person is saved, nothing can separate him/her from the love of Christ ~ NOTHING. We are eternally saved. Paul couldn't go to hell on behalf of others. Neither can you. This was his anguish.
No man can pay for another's sin. Jesus was both God and Man and paid it in full, for all who believe. Those who do not accept His sacrifice ~ this Truth ~ stand condemned now and forever. John 3:18 states, "He who believes in Him is not condemned [judged]; he who does not believe has been condemned [judged] already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
While you say, "I don't think you have the spirit of the great shepherd", you cannot discern this unless you have the Holy Spirit. Read John 14:17 "That is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you."
Believe and receive His salvation, Timpaul. Then, you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit Who will guide you into all truth. (John 16:13; Acts 2:38)
Timpaul, if you're ready to start feasting on the Word of Christ, I invite you to become a reader of my hubs on Judah's Daughter: http://hubpages.com/profile/Judah%27s+Daughter
I pray that the Light will make things clearer and clearer for you; God loves you so much that He gave His life for you. I feel His love for you ~ I really do. My anguish is that of Paul's; thus, the reason I am here.
Carrie,
Yes L. Ray Smith in fact, does urge everyone to come unto Jesus as their savior, but that according to scripture John 6:44 –“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day”-KJV. He also confesses to be “Born-Again” Just check-out his e-mail section and read. Yet there are lots that I disagree with Mr. Smith on many fronts, I have learned a lot from him scripturally by going over his many e-mails. The point I was trying to make is that L. Ray Smith is not a cult; he is not the leader of a cult and is not building a church. In fact he is not attempting to mislead anyone away or to God.
He is one man with theological differences and created a website to share and express those thoughts for a lively debate on theological points of scripture. If you have created your website to challenge those view points then please share them in good faith backing your self up in scripture. Comparing scripture with scripture and by scripture show where he is wrong. I see that you too have particular points of view, but why all the evil diatribe of name calling, associating someone with the devil and calling someone a cult. Sounds to me that you lessen the theological discussion by name calling, or attempting to label someone a cult, when in fact he has no followers and is a confessed born again believer.
Have you no Christian Decency? Did God call on you to hurl insults and label someone of the devil because he has a theological difference?? I mean, on my last post I was merely making reference to historical, Christian Scholastic facts about the bible and you out and out label me as in league with cultist. What’s up with that? Who are you trying to save (When you can’t save anyone, only Jesus can John 6:44 –“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day”-KJV.)
Carrie, once again Mark 16:9–20 is an addition of verses that appeared in later Christian manuscripts after the 4th Century and these verses appear nowhere in the earliest known manuscripts. That’s a fact! All modern translations of the Bible make notations of that to inform the reader. Only the KJV does not make mention. (Does not mean the Bible is corrupt, just means that the earliest Christian manuscripts back to the age when the Apostles were still walking this earth, these early manuscripts just did not have these later additions) This may not mean anything to you, but it does to a lot of other Christian Believers and I’m not talking about any cultist Christian Believers.
Also, the passages of Isaiah 14:12-14: “12) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13) For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.”-KJV
Many a preacher had taught that this was about Satan falling from heaven; many a writer, painter and poet have expressed great works of art over this passage, when in fact it’s a mistranslation of the Hebrew word for “Howl”. From Hebrew to Latin to a Middle English Translation; we go from Howl to Lucifer and then somehow preachers or readers view this as the Devil falling from heaven??? This verse has nothing to do with Satan and all modern translated Bibles (NIV, ESV, NASB, HCSB, WYC, Amplified, New Living and The Message) point this out and have corrected the Latin translation or out and out corrected the translation to reflect the original Hebrew intent. (Does not mean the Bible is corrupt, just means that the earliest Christian manuscripts in Hebrew back to the age when the Apostles were still walking this earth, these early manuscripts identify the verses true meaning and intent) This passage is talking about the King of Babylon; not Satan. This may not mean anything to you, but it does to a lot of other Christian Believers and I’m not talking about any cultist Christian Believers.
Even Mathew 18:11 this verse omitted in almost all modern translations. Not just this verse alone, there are many more like it. Just look up omitted bible verses on a Google search and then grab any KJV Bible and any Modern Translation like the NIV and see that Mathew 18:11 and many others like it have been omitted. Why??? Because modern biblical Scholars have found and or concluded that this verse and other verses were added to the Bible after the 3rd, 4th & 5th centuries and are found nowhere in any early Christian manuscripts THIS IS A FACT! It’s not up for debate. (Does not mean the Bible is corrupt, just means that the earliest Christian manuscripts back to the age when the Apostles were still walking this earth, these early manuscripts just did not have Matthew 18:11) This may not mean anything to you, but it does to a lot of other Christian Believers and I’m not talking about any cultist Christian Believers.
But Carrie, you just shrug all this off as “I do not believe the Bible is corrupt. This is the consistent argument of all cults” Talk about hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil mentality. Then to throw the Cult Bomb Word in there, Wow! You can put your hands to your ears and scream loudly la, La, LA, LAH, LAH all you want, but the tsunami of word for word and true literal translation is coming “Eternity” will revert to “Age” or “Age-Abiding” and “Hell” (Norse Pagan Word) will revert to “Grave”, “Pit” or “Gahenna”. So instead of just digesting scriptural milk, let’s debate the scriptural solid food and leave all the Devil, Cult labeling at home.
You said, “Like any LIE, once someone decides to change the meaning of one thing, they have to then keep changing and changing and changing the meanings of many things, ending up in a perverted doctrine” L. Ray Smith would, with absolute resolve, agree with you on such a statement and he has gone to such great lengths to share and show that by comparing scripture to scripture.
Carrie, we agree that the bible is not corrupt right? The thousands and thousands of Early Christian Manuscripts attest to this. However, you must admit that the revered King James Version is not a pure 'translation' out of the original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts, but rather is a revision of other translations including the Catholic Latin Vulgate by Jerome. Did you know that the 1611 King James Bibles contained fourteen additional books that are no longer found in the modern King James Bible? Which edition was "inerrant or corrupt" the one with the fourteen additional books or the ones with-out the fourteen additional books? We are not talking about a word or two here, we are talking about whole books disappearing from the King James Version!!!
Have you seen the new King James Version? Why did they produce a new version with different words in it if the old King James Version was "inerrant or corrupt?" The KJV translates "sheol" (The Grave) into the English word "grave" 31 times and it translates the same Hebrew word "sheol" into the English word "hell" 31 times. Would you call that "inerrant or corrupt?" Which is it, the grave or hell? You seem to not understand that? How are you helping anyone if you are not prepared to know these translation errors and yet say someone else, probably someone in league with the Devil is attempting to twist the scripture? When there is clear evidence that scripture has translation issues. How many revisions of revisions do we have to endure until the true translation comes upon the scene?
Did you know that many modern language translations are dropping the translation of "hell" in the Old Testament (I’m not talking about some Christian Cult Translation). That's because they have checked and found that the KJV translations, were in absolute error on this subject. The Holy Spirit inspired the New Testament to be written in Greek. When a New Testament writer quotes from the Old Testament Hebrew, the Holy Spirit inspired them to translate the Hebrew word "sheol" (the g
Putt B, Looks like your comment got too long and was cut off. Anyhow, you need to read my hub called "Salvation: Unless God Drag Us?": http://hubpages.com/hub/SALVATION-Unless-God-DRAG-
Why do I rebuke false doctrines? I am called to, for the Spirit of Christ lives in me and I do the will of my Lord. I am just a seed-sower; whether that seed takes root or not is up to the recipient. What kind of soil are you? Read Matthew 13, Luke 8 and Mark 4.
So, like other L. Ray Smith brain-washed individuals, do you also believe that the Holy Spirit is not God? Just curious.
I also know that Lucifer is not Satan. I have a hub on Judah's Daughter called "Is Lucifer the Devil?": http://hubpages.com/hub/Is-Lucifer-the-Devil . I do not agree with the ‘howl’ thing. That's an L. Ray Smith perversion, just like the snake eating dust (mankind). He reads way too far into things ~ he’s “out there”.
I don't ever rely on an English translation of the Bible. I dig; I use the original languages then test by cross-referencing with other passages and comparing all English translations. I agree that the Catholic Bible contains books my Bible does not have. I also realize that Enoch and Jasher were removed from the early Bible, yet are still mentioned in the Bible! I am disappointed and wish to read every book!!
Regarding Sheowl (Hebrew), which is Hades (Greek), depending on the context it can mean the grave or HELL. Indeed! If you read my hub, "HELL: Sheowl, Hades, Tartaroo, Geenna": http://hubpages.com/hub/HELL-Sheowl--Hades--Tartar , you will note that Jesus spoke more about hell than anyone (all passages found in the first four gospels of the NT). He came to tell us about what is to come. You can believe it or not; that's not my responsibility. If Orthodox interpretation is true, to tell someone they have a second chance after physical death will send them directly to Hell (Hades now; Geenna for eternity). That lie would totally negate passages such as Matthew 25:46; Hebrews 9:27 and Revelation 20:12-15...just to name a few.
Just like the Greek word for "hate" has two definitions: in context, you must use common sense and know that one verse translates "to despise" and the other "to love less"; otherwise the English translation would contradict itself (compare Luke 14:26 and 1 John 4:20). So, should I just decide the Bible contradicts itself based on what I read? NO! “Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that need not be ashamed; rightly dividing the Word of Truth! “(2 Timothy 2:15).
Hey, I wish you blessings. I am called to sow the seed; you are called unto salvation since the day you first received that seed, which is the Word of God (Luke 8:11). I pray it take root and not be choked out by the weeds of false doctrine.
Carrie -----------------------Here is the rest of my comments that were cut of when posting earlier --------- Sorry for being so long winded.
Let's pick it up here: Did you know that many modern language translations are dropping the translation of "hell" in the Old Testament (I’m not talking about some Christian Cult Translation). That's because they have checked and found that the KJV translations, were in absolute error on this subject. The Holy Spirit inspired the New Testament to be written in Greek. When a New Testament writer quotes from the Old Testament Hebrew, the Holy Spirit inspired them to translate the Hebrew word "sheol" (the grave, erroneously translated hell half of the time) into the Greek word "HADES." So the Hebrew "sheol" (grave) and the Greek "hades" are synonymous--they have the same meaning, and yet, and Yet the KJV translations translate the Greek word hades (the Unseen, the abode of the dead, the Grave) into the word "hell" 99% of the time!
Why not only 50% of the time as in the Old Testament? But now to the 1%. What about that One Percent (actually only One Time) that the KJV did Not translate the Greek word "hades" into the English word "hell." What happened there? I'll show you. I Cor. 15:55, "O death, where is thy sting? O grave [Greek 'hades' always translated 'hell' elsewhere in the New Testament], where is thy victory?"
Did you catch that, Carrie; In I Cor. 15:55 the KJV translators translated the Greek word not "hell" but "Grave." Why? Why just this Once? Why because in this verse there is "Victory" over This "Hades" over This "Grave" over This "Hell" but the deceitful translators following pagan traditions wanted to deceive the readers on this one verse. They didn't want anyone to know that there is victory over Hades which they always translate as hell in the New Testament!!!
Carrie, I think I make my point. The KJV and other Modern translations will eventually be corrected. L. Ray Smith is just one of many ringing this bell. (Does not mean the Bible is corrupt, just means that the earliest Christian manuscripts back to the age when the Apostles were still walking this earth, will be translated correctly, void of any pagan dogma) This may not mean anything to you, but it does to a lot of other Christian Believers and I’m not talking about any cultist Christian Believers.
Through Christ Our Savior, I Love You Truly,
Putt B
First of all, the word Hades is not even used in 1 Cor 15:55. Here's the Greek break-down of that verse (fyi): http://biblos.com/1_corinthians/15-55.htm
The definition of Sheowl is #7585: (sheh-ole’) meaning Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates: grave, hell, pit. And the definition for Hades is #86: hades (hah’-dace) “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell. Why isn't the definition simply GRAVE? Because, depending on the passage and its context, we can check out the cross-references as well. Also, it must align with all scripture ~ if it appears contradictory, we must apply the common-sense definition provided.
Here's all the scriptures (also shown in my hub on Hell) where the word Hades is used in the New Testament: Mt 11:23 & 16:18; Lu 10:15 & 16:23; Re 1:18, 6:8, 20:13 and 20:14. THESE ARE THE WORDS OF JESUS CHRIST. How would any man alive even know about life beyond death, but Jesus Christ? "Before Abraham was, I AM", He said! (John 8:58). He's the ONLY ONE who could tell us!
Now, regarding the Lake of Fire HELL (Geenna), again Jesus told us about it in Mt 5:22 & 5:29, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15 and 23:33; M'r 9:43, 9:45 and 9:47; and Lu 12:5. The book of James mentions it in 3:6. Not to mention the words "fire and brimstone" and "lake of fire" spoken by Jesus in Lu 17:29 and Re 14:10; 19:20; 20:9-10 & 14-15; and 21:8. Jesus spoke prophecy. He told us what is to come!
Now, Acts 2:27 and 31 is where Paul quotes the Old Testament prophecy of David in Pslam 16:10 about Jesus Christ not being abandoned to the grave ~ that His body would not see corruption. In this case, Sheowl and Hades (per applicable definition) sensibly mean grave, but really could apply to BOTH definitions!
Considering our souls are also not abandoned to the grave, IF you believe what Jesus said in John 11:26: "Everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?", the definition of HELL would then apply. Jesus said we NEVER DIE. Our soul becomes "absent from the body and present with the Lord" immediately upon physical death (2 Cor 5:8). On the Day of physical resurrection, our bodies will be raised INCORRUPTIBLE (1 Cor 15:52), which means ~ there is no end of time (as in an age) ~ there is no corruption of the body. We will either spend eternity in the New Heaven and Earth (eternal life), or in Geenna (the Lake of Fire, aka the second 'death' or eternal death). We only physically DIE ONCE (Hebrews 9:27).
Love is longsuffering: 2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." While you might focus on "not willing that any should perish", I'm focusing on "but that ALL should COME TO REPENTANCE" (turn away from the god of this world)! I'm here to do my best. May God bless the reading of His Word, the Seed of Life.
Your name is Carrie Bradshaw. The name of the main character of the vile series Sex & the City. Your name alone speaks volumes. I am not going to state that L. Ray is right about everything. I know that he is correct in his teaching on tithing.
Bless your heart, Cathy. I recommend you read my hub: "Carrie Bradshaw: Transfer to New Profiles", so you might have a better understanding as to the transformation that took place in my life...and why this profile still exists ~ if God draws those in the world by the name, then it is to His glory. I thoroughly expected this profile to die out, but God continues to draw people here, increasing reads and fans. Regarding tithing, I recommend reading my hub (on Judah's Daughter) called Tithing, Giving and Alms. I pray that L. Ray doesn't demand tithing, nor teach that it is a New Testament commandment, for that is contrary to the New Covenant. Be blessed.
I suggest she read the hub of mine about you that was removed by force.
Hell NO ~ You mean, "Carrie Bradshaw: Just Another Indoctrinated Coward"? This speaks for itself. Have you seen me cower? I think not. In fact, if it wasn't for you and others I wouldn't have known so many need the ministry of the Word. Thus, the purpose for this hub and others like it.
I still am burdened for your salvation. He loves you enough to tell you the truth, which will set you free. And because He loved me and saved me, I love you and believe He will continue to draw you to Him. Merry Christmas. Be blessed.
Why does my ultimate salvation burden you? You should be glad that God isn't a rotten SOB.
Hell NO, God's Word is true, and proper interpretation is most critical, for the Devil himself quotes the Word, twisting its meaning. Whether you believe in hell or not, or whether you believe everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven, contrary to God's Word, does not make what you believe truth. That's what deception is all about. You choose to love what tickles your thinking (2 Tim 4:3), which is to hate the truth (Mat 6:24; Lu 16:13). I pray you will come to repentance, which is the will of God concerning you (2 Pet 3:9).
Carrie,
I'll be spending the long Christmas weekend reading your HUBs "Judah's Daughter" & "Salvation: Unless God Drag Us?"
Will praise you when praise is heeded and challenge you when challenge is required. All for the greater understanding and the seeking of truth when it comes to Gods Word.
Just want to say you & L. Ray Smith do agree the same on tithing. No church body should demand tithing or require tithing of its members under our New Covenant thru Christ Jesus. True Christian believers will give regularly and at times needed to build their church and serve the Lords Missionary Ministries.
Regarding the 1 Corinthians 15:55
1 Corinthians is talking about the resurrection of the dead (Not just the resurrection of the Christian Believers).
1 Corinthians 15:55 (Young's Literal Translation)
55 where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'
1 Corinthians 15:55 (Green’s Literal Translation)
55 “O death, where is your sting? Hades, where is your victory?”
1 Corinthians 15:55 (New King James Version) (Which is a Revision)
55 “O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?”
1 Corinthians 15:55 (21st Century King James Version) (Another Revision)
55"O death, where is thy sting? O Grave, where is thy victory?"
1 Corinthians 15:55 (Holy Bible in Modern English) (Ferrar Fenton Bible)
55"O death, where is thy sting? O Grave, where is thy victory?"
Even if I am willing to capitulate that Hades is not among the Greek break-down of that verse, how do these Literal Translators get it wrong as well as the KJV revisionist???
The fact is they did not. Paul in Corinthians is quoting scripture in verse 1 Corinthians 15:55 and the scripture he is quoting is Hosea 13:14, the Hebrew Manuscripts and the Greek Septuagint translates grave as (Sheol, Grave and Pit which in turn is translated in all other respects as Hades or HELL in all other areas of the New Testament.
Here are three Big Questions in regards to 1 Corinthians 15:55 & Hosea 13:14:
• What is the Hebrew understanding of Hell in relationship to “Sheol”? And how does that correlate to the Christian concept of Hell?
• When the Greek break-down of the verse 1 Corinthians 15:55 is simply Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?-NIV And Paul is quoting Hosea 13:14 which is 14 "I will ransom them from the power of the grave [Sheol]; I will redeem them from death. Where, O death, are your plagues?
Where, O grave, [Should] is your destruction? "I will have no compassion.-NIV
What is the conclusion of the reader? What’s Hosea talking about? & what
then is Paul talking about, in relation to both verses’?
• When there is no clear translation to conclude the meaning of a word or verse, we are taught in Bible class (As well as Theological Seminary) to compare scripture to scripture? Is this not a clear example from Paul in comparing Scripture? He’s the one doing the quoting. I’m talking about the comparison of scripture to scripture not some later 3rd Century Christian Theory or Dogma.
This is the crux of the matter: True Biblical understanding of Gods words, the coming age of comparing the earliest known manuscripts to the later additions to 3rd, 4th, & 5th century manuscripts. You asked me a question: “So, like other L. Ray Smith brain-washed individuals, do you also believe that the Holy Spirit is not God? Just curious?
Just so you don’t run off on a bender about cults I will clarify my background
Born into a presbytery home.
Born again in the Church of Christ
Grew in Gods Spirit among the Vineyard Churches
Currently attending Fellowship Church Grapevine, TX-Pastor Ed Young.
You maybe unaware that the verse Matthew 28:19 “19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” Is a 3rd Century addition to copied Christian Manuscripts. No manuscripts prior to the 3rd century have it. Instead they have "Go ye, and make disciples of all the nations IN MY NAME"
It’s something to ponder how these additions were added around the same time Christian writer Tertullian was formulating his theory and coining the term Trinity.
I’m finding my position on the trinity wavering. I’m still contemplating my position and have been praying about it a great deal.
Again I’ll be reading your HUB’s, Have a merry Christmas.
Putt B
Hi Putt B. It's good you'll be reading my hubs on Judah's Daughter, and I appreciate that you would do so. There's a lot of information there, even on the topic of hell.
My view on the Old Testament is that they did not have a knowledge of hell the way Jesus Christ depicted it. Jesus had not come yet to reveal all of this. Paul was quoting an Old Testament scripture (that of David) and stating its prophecy had been fulfilled.
Regarding the trinity, consider this: Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, was He not? He is called the Son of God. He is never called the Son of the Holy Spirit in the Bible. The Bible tells us that God is Spirit. The Bible also proves to us that Jesus is Immanuel, God with us and is God incarnate ~ the Word of God made flesh. This is the One God. He is not three separate beings, but is Elohiym (the greatness of God). I have a hub there called "God is ONE: the Trinity Explained". Even the definition of the name of Jesus is revealing!
When we are baptized into Christ we receive His Holy Spirit; in fact, there's more proof of the "trinity" concept: The Spirit of God is also called the Spirit of Christ throughout the Bible. I have a hub called "John and Jesus: About BAPTISM" that also covers water- and Spirit-baptism. John the Baptist told us that Jesus will baptize us with the Holy Spirit (as the tongues of fire on the Day of Pentecost); Jesus never baptized in water, yet there is "one baptism", the Word says. The Word is clear that John's baptism is that of repentance. The baptism of Jesus seals us until the Day of Redemption.
I also have a hub called, "Who Do You Say That I AM?" that proves the divinity of Jesus Christ. One of the proofs of the "trinity" is that the Bible has Jesus saying He will raise Himself from the dead; another passage says the Holy Spirit raised Him; a third states that God raised Him. Now we understand this One God.
I also have a hub called, "Beyond Death: What the Bible Says" that shows us that our spirit/soul is absent from the body upon physical death, but indeed ALL will be resurrected bodily as well at the appointed time. Believers will be resurrected in the "first resurrection"; unbelievers are resurrected after the millennial reign. Revelation is very clear about this.
Be blessed and Merry Christmas to you! Hold fast to the gospel, for Jesus' prophecy is that in the last days, many will wander from the truth and prefer to follow teachers that tickle the ears. Be assured in your salvation and spread the gospel by the leading of the Holy Spirit ~ sowing the seed of the Word; be not weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap a harvest of souls into the kingdom of God!
What I find amazing about all the so called Christians of today is that none of you can agree on anything yet you profess to be one in spirit. Is this the spirit of Babel.
Why must the author edit everything? Is she afraid that the truth might set some free?
Dear Carrie,
For one so young you seem very certain that you have all the answers to questions that have baffled the rest of mankind for thousands of years.
It is not difficult to quote scriptures,however it is sometimes difficult to determine the truth using such pathetically translated and corrupted material.
The natural is the forerunner to the spiritual, and God must be served in spirit and in truth.
Are you sure that the creation in Genesis was a natural creation or was it the spiritual recreation of man?
If indeed it was natural, pray tell where did the rest of the human race come from.
If however it was spiritual, was Eve perhaps a metaphor for the soul of man? There are two Adams mentioned in scripture
Was the second Adam " The Lord out of heaven " perhaps the result of this recreation of the first Adam (the mind of man)?
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven why the concern to save the creature.
Dear Carrie,
You mentioned that this is going to be a war page, however I see it as a war against ignorance. We fight not a battle of the flesh but a battle of the spirit against the principalities and the powers in high places.The highest place on a man or woman is the mind. Rule one in the demonic battle manual is " divide and rule ".
Keep the Christians divided and the demonic battle is won.
The Terestrial ~ I'm sorry you feel children of God do not agree on anything; quite the contrary. I find it a sign of unity among believers, even here on HubPages, that have never met each other before. Truly, doctrines of man divide, but the Spirit of God unites.
As far as author-editing, I do not approve ad hominem. If you have a genuine question or comment, it will be approved. As far as truth, this hub uses the Word of God and its accurate interpretation. If you don't understand it, the Spirit of God is not giving you understanding. Those walking in the Spirit understand. Otherwise, we would see a flood of born-again believers here admonishing what is written, for we are called to do so. Do you claim to be saved?
As far as man being natural or spiritual, he is both. Pinch yourself. This will answer your question. The two Adams are the first Adam (sinful) and the last Adam (sinless), the reconciliation of the first Adam and his descendants to God through faith in Jesus Christ alone...not through fire. And, faith comes by hearing the Word of God, not by fire.
Flesh and blood dies. Spirit does not. When we are raised incorruptible, we will not be in fleshly bodies. While we are in the flesh, we have need of a Savior, for we are all sinners. Therefore, we must not only be born of water (our mother's womb), but of the Spirit ~ we must be born again (John 3).
You are right that this is a war against ingornance. Those who choose to willfully ignore the Word of God. And who is it that blinds the minds of the UNBELIEVING? The god of this world aka Satan. It takes a prayer of repentance by faith in Jesus Christ for the blind eyes to see.
Division is not of God; you're right, but Jesus said He did not come to bring peace, but a sword. That Sword is the Word of God interpreted by the Holy Spirit in us. This battle's been going on since Adam and Eve were in the garden. God's word against Satan's twisting of God's word. It will be present until the Lord returns and puts an end to the warfare ~ sheep on the right; goats on the left, life and death.
Acts 17:30-31 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is NOW declaring to men that ALL people everywhere should REPENT, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the WORLD in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished PROOF to ALL men by raising Him from the dead." Nothing said about judging through fire here, nor declaring that people repent LATER. NOW is the time for salvation (2 Cor 6:2).
You foolish woman taken in by and teaching the doctrine of demons and devils having your very conscience seared with a hot iron, let me ask just one thing of you.. What did the Father send his son (the word made flesh that would not fail by the Father's own solemn declaration ) into the world to do ??? Did he send him to be the savior of the world or destroyer??? Does Jesus have the power and authority to carry out the will of the Father?? will Jesus fail ?? Is salvation by the hand of God or the will of man ?? I assure you Ms. Bradshaw by the Sprit of Our Father himself, you will bow before Mr. Smith in the morning after that great day and evening.
You are the very epitimany of the anti christ, denying the very Savior who bought you..making the cross to be of none effect therefore Your condemnation is sure.. You even as the Pharisses of old shall find youself outside the gates, in the very lake of fire which you falsely claim to know something about..
Signed,
A child of the Living God, burned alive in this life, having seen the Holy One, in whom dwells no darkness at all.. Jesus is Lord and Savior of all.. He who says differently is an Anti- Christ plain and simple.. Shelah Let God be true and all men liars. :0) I thank you my Father, for you are Love.. :0)..
Pamitchrus, You said, "you will bow before Mr. Smith". The first commandment broken already? "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me"? Are YOU bowing to Mr. Smith now? And, like I asked you on another hub, does Ephesians 2:8 say, "For by grace are you saved through fire"?
have yet not read that the wicked will bow before the righteous?? Have you not read what Jesus said he make those do who taught false doctrine ??? and again I ask you will Jesus fail ??? It's a simple question, one which the Father has already answered..I implore you to climb aboard, least you be left outside the gates.. :0)..
pamitchrus, And I suspect you didn't read this hub, nor receive it's truth. L. Ray Smith is not even saved, so he is not righteous by the blood of the Lamb of God. For him to lead people to believe they will be saved after death through the Lake of Fire is heresy. And, because I am saved, I will bow to no one but my Savior and Lord, Jesus Christ. Why don't you type some convincing argument here? I've addressed so many of these false teachings already, and would be surprised if you came up with anything new.
pamitchrus, I've added some interesting information about L. Ray Smith to my hub just tonight (see above or here in this comment):
First of all, we must expose the root of L. Ray Smith. There was/is a hubber on HubPages called "yes2truth" who was an avid follower of this man's teaching, yet I recently stumbled upon a web-posting written by him back in March 2006 called "L. Ray Smith - The Legalist Blasphemer!" in which he states, and I quote, "Myself, like old Ray, having once been a member of Herbert W. Armstrongs's Judaising cult, and upon stumbling across ('stumbling' being a very relevant word here) L. Ray Smith's website and forum, I instantly related to his no nonsense style of preaching/teaching, which in itself is fine, and therein found much Truth being taught, but then, Hello!? I've been here before haven't I? Yes of course I had and there it was, all the time, that old stumbling block of legalism." http://herbertwarmstrongliveson.blogspot.com/
Now, I've already exposed Armstrongism in my hub "A False Prophet of the Last Days?" Another name for this cult is the Worldwide Church of God.
have you not read what Jesus and Paul said ?? that every man would be tested ,salted , and saved by fire even if they suffer loss they would be saved even so by fire ??? Jesus himself claimed that he would draw all men, salt all men with fire, and save all sheep.. whose side are ya on ??? The god of Molech or The God of the Lord Jesus Christ ?? Have you read but yet still deny the Lord Jesus Christ at whose name every, repeat every knee shall bow and tongue confess.. and what do the scriptures say in regard to salvation ??? Is it not written that with the tongue confession is made unto salvation ??? is it not written in the book of Daniel that there will be those who are ressurected to joy and others to shame ??? But as it is written better a live dog outside the gates than a lion dead in the ground.. Jesus, Prince of Peace , seek him Ms. Bradshaw, and perhaps he will reveal the Father to you..for you speak of things of which you do not know..you pervert the righteous judgement of a Holy God who has sent his son to save us all.. Have you not read that God has created all in sin so that he can have mercy on all ?? Why kick ye at the pricks Ms. Bradshaw.. I have prayed for you, may the Father have his way with you shortly.. In his name I have believed, the Christ, Son of God, savior of all men !!!! For salvation is not by chance, nor choice , but by the command of God himself. His name will be praised for all times to come !!! Which much love and concern from a Son of the living God.. Thank you my Father.. :0)..
Carrie,
You need to know this now. L Ray Smith is absolutely SAVED!
How dare you say otherwise? He has confessed on his website many times over Jesus is his Lord and Savior and by the Grace of God he is saved no different than thief on the Cross next to Jesus was saved!
It’s that simple of a confession, that acknowledgement alone, between the sinner and Jesus Christ.
All believers will face a final judgment at Gods Great White Throne. Any man who confesses Jesus is Lord, Lord is saved by grace and you and I cannot say other wise.
L. Ray Smith is saved! Just Like you are saved no different and in no less glory!
Now if he has a different theology from you and/or your church. That is an issue for God to judge. NOT YOU EVER! You may disagree, you may yell “demon word this or in league with the devil that”. But how dare you say that a man or woman who confesses Jesus Lord, Lord is not saved. HOW DARE YOU!
If you want to say that in your opinion he is not saved then O.K. But, praise God people will read this blog and see the absolute self-righteous attitude, much like the Pharisees back in the day. You will lose your audience with that kind of talk. Once Saved Always Saved!
In Gods Name
PB
Carrie,
The World Wide Church of God is now a member of the National Association of Evangelicals (NAE). The Church as a whole has reversed it’s self on Armstrongism and has accepted the normal understanding of the Trinity as the same as your church does.
The World Wide Church of Gods acceptance in the NAE (You might want to check, your church may also be a member of the NAE) has made right the sins of its former Cult status.
Please read about what you write about before you condemn many people as cultist. The World Wide Church of God in reality, have come over to righteous understanding and have shed their sinful ways. Where is your grace and mercy? Are you infact a representative of your church?
The World Wide Church in name, no longer exist. The name was changed on April 3, 2009 to their new official name “Grace Communion International (GCI) and have established themselves as a true church in the Christian norm.
Humble Thy Self,
PB
pamitchrus, you said, "that every man would be tested ,salted , and saved by fire even if they suffer loss they would be saved even so by fire ??? You are referring to 1 Cor 3:13-15. The following scriptures help clarify its meaning: Zechariah 3:2; Amos 4:11; and Jude 23.
The interpretation is as follows: A builder whose building (works), not the foundation (his salvation in Christ), is consumed by fire, and escapes (is barely snatched out of the fire), and thus he suffers the loss of his work (no reward), yet still inherits the kingdom of God.
You said, “Jesus himself claimed that he would draw all men, salt all men with fire, and save all sheep..” Jesus said He would draw all men unto Himself when he is lifted up from the earth. That drawing comes by hearing the gospel, the Word of God. Likewise, saving faith comes by hearing the Word of God. We are saved by grace through faith, not fire.
Jesus said clearly the Good Shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. You are assuming all are sheep. The Bible clearly states there are sheep and goats (wheat and tares/God’s children and Satan’s children). The goats will be told to depart into the Lake of Fire reserved for the devil and his angels. If you do a study on the word “angels”, you will see the definition includes mankind. For more on the drawing of the Holy Spirit, please read my hub, “Salvation: Unless God DRAG Us?”.
Regarding every knee bowing and tongue confessing, notice that the demons also believed and shudder, and are bowing (subject) to His name. Confessing the truth of who Jesus is does not mean one is saved. Being saved means to confess one is a sinner, to confess Jesus is Lord, to love Him, to submit to the infilling of the Holy Spirit and live according to His will. Nowhere in the Bible do we see a demon get saved. There is an appointed time (thus, the reservation) when they will be cast into the Lake of Fire, just like Satan’s children, who reject the gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ. Matthew 8:29 states, “And they cried out, saying, "What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"
Jesus said He is the only Way to the Father. We are not drawn by fire, nor saved by fire. Fire is not yet another way to the Father. And because we are not saved by works, fire is not used to make us do good works in order to be saved. Our righteousness is through faith in Christ alone.
You can tell me until you’re blue in the face that I’m deceived, but lies do not penetrate the shield of faith I wear.
Putt B, I can confidently say L. Ray Smith is NOT SAVED, for he would not have the father of lies preaching through him, misleading people to the gates of hell (Hades and Geenna), thinking they're going to be saved by it! I stand confidently in my statement.
Putt B, There are many churches that go by different names. If they follow Armstrongism, it is a cult. If they have renounced Armstrongism and are teaching and following the Word of God, they are not a cult. What I stated was that L. Ray Smith and yes2truth were rooted in ARMSTRONGISM (prior to March 2006). They did go by the name, Worldwide Church of God and in fact, their posts are all over my hub google ads, contradicting most everything I write! Armstrongism has chosen several names to confuse people (so as not to be identified). They can be called whatever they want; we shall know them by their fruit ~ the gospel they preach! They are either preaching doctrines of demons or the gospel of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ alone.
And regarding "humbling myself", I am laboring to sow the Seed of truth with you folks. The Spirit of God is the authority by which I speak with boldness. I will boast in the Lord! Humility is to walk in the truth (not walking beneath it or above it, but IN IT), amen! The Spirit of God does not "bow" to lies, but speaks to them with His authority. I am the vessel; He is the Spirit of Truth, in which I speak.
one must wonder why it is in the last book , last chapter, after the gwt judgement, when those found unworthy are in the lake of fire, outside the gates, why it is that bride says come,and the spirit says come, and let whoever is thirsty come and drink of the water of life freely. You know not God, nor the love of God.. You have not seen him, for if you had you would be sicken by the accusation you bring against the God of love, whom I have seen, and do declare to you is indeed the savior of all men.. with men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible. My Father is not a lair, neither is he anything but refining love, just like any decent parent would be.. Oh that you would learn the spirit of the law and not the letter, for the letter kills , but the spirit gives life.. Oh the shame to come for you !!! For my Father has declared that he will punish those who speak evil of him.. think on this my sister, and perhaps you will recieve light.. :0).. With much love to you from Pamitchrus, a son of the living God, born of water and fire, I bless your most holy name my Father !!! Send forth the son my Father, for your holy name is being profaned.. Shelah... Holy, Holy, Holy, who was and is and is to come.. Holy, holy, Holy !!! Your the best Dad , and I thank you that your words are life !!!
oh my goodness, have you not read that we all as sheep have gone astray ??? How is it you know your left from your right, up from down, but do not know the difference between love and hate ?? Have you not read that the wicked will be broken, that every man will confess to the Father that he was right, and that in him alone is truth and strength?? Know ye not that God is the same yesterday, tomorrow, and forever ?? I fear for you my little sister.. for you worship him with your lips, but your heart is far from the heart of the Father.. and again I say unto you I have seen him, and in him dwells no darkness at all.. Know ye not that God will shatter the mishappen pots and make them yet new again ?? Do you not know that God works all things according to the counsel of his will ?? and his will is that none perish ?? have ye not read that if we of all people have hope in this life only then we are the most miserable of all peoples ? Know ye not that our Father in heaven is perfect ??? Oh how I travil in birth till Christ be formed in you... answer this.. what is the will of God ?? and will he work all things according to his will ??He said that he would , is God a liar ???
pamitchrus, you said "why it is that bride says come,and the spirit says come, and let whoever is thirsty come and drink of the water of life freely." Come and drink of the water of life freely? This points to free will. We've been invited since the Lord Jesus was lifted up from the earth on that cross, was buried and rose again. Your doctrine says we have no free will to come and drink, but we are rather cast into the Lake of Fire to be forced into it. I pray you will see the error of doctrine in which you follow. If you read my hubs on Judah's Daughter, you will see that I love the Lord with all my heart and believe He is now drawing all men unto Himself; yet I also believe His Word in John 12:48 when He said "He who rejects Me [free will] and does not receive My sayings [free will], has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day."
Carrie,
You are bordering on a clear path of self-righteousness. The World Wide Church of God reversed it’s self on Armtrongism way back in the early 1990’s and have been a church on the righteous side of the Christian norm. Your quick desire to lash out and call this church a cult before investigating its history is down right offensive and you remind me of a modern day Spanish Inquisition.
Do not lump many in as a cult, when they have come along way to reverse themselves from that status. Condemning a whole group of people before you find out the truth, in order to help save people from the clutches of L. Ray Smith is horrendous. Your verbal slaughter all the innocent Born-Again World Wide Church of God congregation is very SELF-RIGHTEOUS Miss Bradshaw.
If you would have just stated that Mr. Smith was once a member of a church that followed the tenants of Armstrongism (This is still Questionable) then no problem. To say a name of a church congregation as being Armstrongism, when in fact they are no longer, then maybe you need to double check yourself before you do anything.
But NO, Carrie Bradshaw is wrapped in the power of the Holy Spirit and wields the mighty sword of God in the defense of saving those falling to the Grip of L. Ray Smith no matter how many people, innocent of all this hub-bub, fall in the wake.
Please FACT CHECK before you speak.
Can you not realize that you made a mistake and that you have now researched that the World Wide Church of God is a bonafide member of the Christian establishment in most of all America. Would not an apology be the decent Christian thing to do?
Also it’s kind of funny how way up at the top of your Blog you were once accusing L. Ray Smith of association with Jehovah’s Witnesses and now he is associated with Armstrongism. But it does not matter, either way he is associated with the Devil and Cults and is not saved. Even though he confessed that Jesus is Lord, Lord! You are something else Miss Bradshaw.
Regarding L. Ray Smith associated with Armstrongism:
If this were a court sitting and we the viewers of this blog were to Judge and you attempted to submit evidence that L. Ray Smith is from, was apart of, or associated with Armstrongism and you bought fourth the notes stated by Yes2Truth as your evidence, then it would be thrown out of court. You can’t submit a 3rd party saying as evidence to any court of law. You must submit a 1st person account. Go to the source Miss Bradshaw. E-mail Mr. Smith directly ask him, is he, was he, a follower of Armstrongism.
Again, I’m not a follower of L. Ray Smith and I’m certainly not a follower of Armstrongism. But there is much to learn from both when it comes to understanding the scriptures of God. I’m wise enough to discern what is insightful scripture understanding from what is of a cult. Your aiding no one with this blog, you are saving no one.
You are self righteous, condemning with out fact checking and saying L. Ray Smith is not saved, even though he confessed Lord, Lord because of your opinion of his theological difference is just down right blasphemy! Clearly you are conducting no work of God here. It would not surprise me if you again use the Name World Wide Church of God and The Term Cult in your reply to this writing. Watch everyone how she does it!
PB
pamitchrus, do you not know that there are children of God and children of Satan (Mat 13:38)? Do you not know that there are two fathers? The father, the devil (John 8:44) and the Father, God? God desires all men to be saved and has paid the price and made the only Way for all. It is up to mankind to choose to accept or reject their Savior (Joshua 24:15). I invite you to read the three hubs here addressing your doctrine, and all the comments (which will take you hours, for I've labored in love for a year now with your kind). What you say is not new to me and has been addressed. The three hubs are this one, and "Refute of Salvation for All Doctrine" and "Salvation: Unless God DRAG Us".
Though you claim to be saved, your err in doctrine is your only offense ~ but that offense becomes an abomination when you mislead those who are ripe and ready to receive the gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ's shed blood alone, by telling them they can't be saved now (unless God drags them to it) and they will indeed be saved by fire after physical death.
Once they enter hell (because of your doctrine), it's permanent. If it wasn't, Jesus would have told the account of Lazarus and the rich man differently: Abraham could have said to the rich man, "Once you've been purified you can come over here"; Or, if it was an earthly fiery trial, he would have said, "You can go tell your brothers yourself, and hopefully they will believe you"; Or, he would have told the rich man, "Don't worry about your brothers; they, too, will go through the fire and be saved."
You are misinterpreting the Word of God to your own selfish satisfaction. To rebuke you is to love you, for "you are a stumbling block to the Lord; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's." (Mat 16:23)
pamitchrus, sounds to me like you are tossed about by every wind of doctrine when you said, "Again, I’m not a follower of L. Ray Smith and I’m certainly not a follower of Armstrongism. But there is much to learn from both when it comes to understanding the scriptures of God." BOTH ARE CULTS! Why in the world would you trust anything that comes out of a double-minded teaching? If Armstrongism denounced its ways in the 1990's, that doesn't say they weren't and aren't a cult. Why is it that wheat and tares cannot be identified until the harvest? They look the same until the fruit is evident. Their ROOTS are different, but are hidden. My job is to expose the roots of any tree that leads to death. We are to eat of the tree of life, Jesus Christ. Your doctrine teaches anyone can eat of any tree of the garden and live ~ a lie from the Serpent himself, since the beginning of time (Gen 3).
Found on the internet: "In the early 1930s, Herbert Armstrong began a ministry that eventually became the Worldwide Church of God. He had many unusual doctrines. These he taught so enthusiastically that eventually more than 100,000 people attended weekly services. After he died in 1986, church leaders began to realize that many of his doctrines were not biblical. These doctrines were rejected, and the church is now in full agreement with the statement of faith of the National Association of Evangelicals. To reflect these doctrinal changes, the church changed is name to Grace Communion International in April 2009."
Just for an absolute observation, Grace Communion International has their doctrine ALMOST correct ~ ALMOST doesn't cut it! Check out just two of their doctrinal statements:
“The sacrament of baptism proclaims that we are saved by Christ alone and not through our own repentance and faith.”
“All humans are, in spite of themselves, loved, forgiven, and included in Jesus Christ, who is their Lord and Savior. God’s love will never cease or diminish even for those who, denying the reality of who they are in him, refuse his love.”
THIS IS DANGEROUS TEACHING.
What does the Bible say about repentance and faith?
REPENTANCE:
2 Pet 3:9b "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." This indicates that without repentance, mankind will perish eternally.
Acts 17:30 "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent." NOW.
Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
FAITH:
Eph 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith." NOT THROUGH FIRE.
Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." It doesn't come through FIRE.
For those who REFUSE His love ~ saved anyhow?
John 12:48 "He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." We have His Word NOW. There is no excuse.
John 15:22 "If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin."
Now, the NAE believes, and I quote: "We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost; they that are saved unto the resurrection of life and they that are lost unto the resurrection of damnation." Nowhere do they state all will be saved!!!
Lmao.. Is God love or not ?? Simple question. and yes we are all sheep.. all souls are mine says the lord. By the way my Father is gonna whip your butt in the kingdom to come.. but a good whipping is a good thing .. :0).. when give by the God of love himself. so again one simple question.. is love love or is love hate ??? My goodness how clever you are at avoiding this simple question .. Could it be that unlike Paul you are ashamed of your gospel ?? And what you are teaching is indeed shameful and I assure you once again that My Father will shame you in the kingdom to come.. Such wicked things you say about my Father !!! All wil be ressurected in their order in the Kingdom to come.. a few will be inside the gates, the majority outside the gates where they will be untill they carry out the sentence of our righteous judge the Lord Jesus Christ himself... after which time they too will be allowed to enter the gates with untold rejoicing !!! Oh but they you knew the love of our God and heavenly Father ... One can never, ever, understand the things to come unless one understands that God is love.. :0)... and love conquers all.. :0).. Dang lady open that heart , enough of that wormwood water pouring outta your belly.. Those who believe in his name out of their belly will flow pure water of life.. Once again all will be ressurected, some to shame some to joy but all to life.. :0).. duh ...
pamitchrus, first of all out of your belly comes terms such as LMAO. Shame?
Obviously, you don't understand that God both loves and hates. Likewise, you need some teaching on love ~ if your question is genuine and you are mature enough to eat meat. I invite you to read my hub "Hated on Account of My Name": http://hubpages.com/hub/HATED-on-Account-of-My-Nam
1 Cor 3:2-3 "And I, [pamitchrus], could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly."
pamitchrus, You quoted the first part of Ezekiel 18:4, but neglected the rest: "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die."
Mat 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Geenna, the Lake of Fire)." Yes, all souls are His and He will judge the ones who reject Him to eternal hell. Wake up, while there's still time.
MAT: 10:29 DUH.. God is love ... Lmao as even my Father said he will do.. :0).. You do not yet know him, I have tried to lead you to the simple truth of the gospel, but alas you are yet blinded , therefore I take my leave of you ,see you in the ressurections to come.Again much love from a child of the Living God in whom dwells no darkness at all.. Meditate on that for a while and all things will be reavealed to you.With much sorrow of heart I say goodbye. Remember, in God is no darkness all.. think on this and perhaps he might yet give you light..
Resist the devil and HE WILL FLEE FROM YOU! (James 4:7) Who's fleeing here? I am praying for your true salvation, pamitchrus.
Ray has not been involved with the WWCG since the early to mid 80s. In fact, he was well on his way out of the church when he was fired for beginning to teach the truths of God. He has been receiving furthur gifts of the holy spirit since. Most people who are gifted with the truths of God have their roots in one of the many cults AKA churches of this world. That's why we are commanded to come out of her.
Hell No ~ While L. Ray Smith came out of a cult, he started another. If you call what he teaches "truth" it is evidence he is good at deception. Even your buddy, yes2truth identified his cult status, even though he does not embrace the whole truth, so help him God, to this day.
I don't believe this yes2truth has ever left a comment on my hubs. As I recall, I couldn't gather what it was he actually believed when he posted somewhere else. I don't think we were ever of like mind. But if that's the best you can do to discredit me, then keep digging.
Hell No, People only need to read your hubs to credit or discredit your beliefs. All of us are influenced by teachers, true or false. Some cults mask the lies with enough truth it's very hard to tell the difference. Others outright worship Satan and there is no doubt. That's why the foundational, or fundamental doctrine is most important. The gospel is salvation through Jesus Christ alone, Whose grace was shed upon all those who believe. For those who choose not to believe, His grace is made null and void.
Thus, the passage in Galatians 2:21 by Paul (in this case to the Jews), "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." Likewise, if righteousness comes through works (or by cleansing through fire), Christ died needlessly. Through faith in Christ, we are cleansed by His blood alone and made the righteousness of God in Him. Amen.
I'm only going to leave this one comment, and I'm gone. Yes2Truth was/is opposed to the teachings of L. Ray Smith, because he taught that a person couldn't know if they were saved until the end, and that being saved was the hardest thing in the world.
Thanks, Sanctus. The Apostle Paul wrote in 1 John 5:13, "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life."
Jesus said in Mat 11:29-30, "Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For My yoke is EASY, and My burden is LIGHT."
I have a hub on my Judah's Daughter profile called "Religion versus Salvation" that shows how simple it is to be saved. It is Satan's tactic to teach the opposite ~ salvation by works, salvation by chastisement, salvation through fire...and so much more.
Lies enslave; Truth sets free, amen!!
The fire is Christ.
Salvation is by His grace through faith in Christ. Eph 2:8 "For by GRACE are YOU SAVED through FAITH." Once again, I say, NOT THROUGH FIRE. Amen.
Carrie I've read over this hub several times, and its very obvious that you avoid questions and comments, and scriptures that refute your blasphemous teachings and statements. You are a perfect example of what its like to be blinded by God.
Not trying to be rude, but that's just what I see in everything you have said in this entire hub. Sorry but you don't have a chance against the truth unless God opens your eyes.
Well, Roy, I'm glad you've read this hub several times. I suggest you read my other two: "Refute of Salvation for All Doctrine" and "Salvation: Unless God DRAG Us" and receive more Seed of truth. I am praying for you and those of your doctrine. If I have not answered questions satisfactorily, please state them clearly and I will do my best to answer them.
Carrie, Isn't it curious that we both think we have been dragged to the truth? Everything is of, and from God.
12 years ago I didn't believe in God at all. He called me into a church of your beliefs. It all seemed right for almost 10 years. He did some wonderful things in my life during those years, but a compilation of things started bothering me that I just couldn't get rid of.I prayed for truth, and it was God that led me out of the church because of their false doctrine, which is basically the same as yours.I was called into, and out of it. I had to see the deception to see the truth. All of us are where we are because that's where God wants us to be for a time.Its okay that we believe differently. It is God that leads our steps. The carnal mind just doesn't want to believe this even though Scripture says so.
I don't judge you for your beliefs. Its all just part of Gods plans and intentions. Why do you judge and call those that don't believe as you to be a cult? We've all been where you are. The only way any of us could believe what you teach is that God would have to call us back to what He calls deception and lies. Its not likely that He wants us to go back to that.
Its not necessary that you pray for me, unless you want God to undo a good work that He is doing in me.He is also doing a work in you but different. All is of God.
I'm sure this isn't the first time this scripture has been quoted to you, but lets look at it again with a question.
Matt 7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord,have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in your name?
The question is who are the ones that do these things in His name? Its the pastors in the churches. No one else makes these claims. The most interesting thing about this scripture is that not one single pastor that I know of can see this to be himself. Its always someone else in their eyes because these are the eyes and ears that God has given them, but the good news is that they aren't going to burn for eternity for doing what God intends for them to do.
Everyone sees all the doe's and don't in the bible and think we can choose to do or don't on our own, but its God that makes every single little thing possible.
When I came out of your doctrines, God didn't say, darn it, I lost another one to L. Ray Smith. Only someone that doesn't know God would believe that that's the way it is.
I don't follow Ray or any man, but God does use people as His tools to accomplish His will and intentions, just as you are His tool. All of us are Gods tools, yet the carnal mind wants to think that we can do things of our own.
All I have to do is look at my life, and the way this world is to see that man can do nothing of his own. Nothing!
When Paul was on his way to Damascus to do some serious damage to Christians, he was doing it for the church. He thought he was doing Gods work of which he was, but in a different way than good, but it had a purpose because God seen that all is good. In a split second Paul was on the ground asking what he should do. Could he have went against Gods intentions by denying God? That would have had God saying, darn it I failed again, I guess I'll have to find someone else.
God makes us to be the vessel that we are, and we can do nothing about it. We can't refuse it. Paul was a vessel of dishonor, yet he thought he was a vessel of honor.In a blink of an eye God changed him.We are only what God wants us to be.
Roy, consider the following two passages:
2 Tim 4:3-4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths."
Hebrews 6:4-6 "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame."
You said, "The carnal mind just doesn't want to believe this even though Scripture says so."
Is God able to go after a sheep gone astray? Yes. Until you die, you have the choice to heed His Word or twist it. You have been led astray by a wolf in sheep's clothing and I know it is God's desire to bring you back. Were you ever saved? Do you believe the Holy Spirit lives in you? What exactly are Ray's teachings regarding the Holy Spirit? Is He God Himself? I will be here for you, as I do the will of my Father ~ which is to help guide you with His staff and rod of love back into the fold.
I don't know what your pastor(s) taught you. Frankly, I've seen a lot of churches go by the name of "Christianity" and they are TWISTED. I pray you will continue to read my material (especially on Judah's Daughter), so He can lead you by His Spirit, should He use me to do so.
Roy, regarding Matthew 7:22 ~ using the Name of Jesus to do anything does not prove one is saved, but merely that they are using His authority. Here's an example:
Acts 19:13- "A group of Jews was traveling from town to town casting out evil spirits. They tried to use the name of the Lord Jesus in their incantation, saying, 'I command you in the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, to come out!' Seven sons of Sceva, a leading priest, were doing this. But one time when they tried it, the evil spirit replied, 'I know Jesus, and I know Paul, but who are you?' Then the man with the evil spirit leaped on them, overpowered them, and attacked them with such violence that they fled from the house, naked and battered."
There are so many false prophets out there that "prophesy" in the 'Name of Jesus', bringing shame to His name. Those who are true, those who have the Holy Spirit in them, whereby the true gifts of the Spirit of made manifest, are SEALED until the Day of Redemption.
Ephesians 4:30 "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."
Roy, did you know that Paul was originally named Saul and was a devout Jewish leader? He was not a vessel of dishonor. He was of God's chosen ones, the tribe of Benjamin (Phil 3:5). Paul obviously loved God with all His heart to go after these "blasphemers". While the Lord revealed Himself to Paul by His Spirit (as Paul never knew Jesus Christ in the flesh), He reveals Himself to us through the hearing of His Word. It is "in an instant", amen! If you claim to be saved, it surely was not by being blinded on the road to Damascus. Nor was my experience like that.
Keep in mind that Jesus chose His twelve disciples. Paul was not one of the twelve. Judas was a devil, Jesus said. He was replaced by Matthias, who was chosen by the 11 ~ not by Jesus Himself. I pray you are given understanding. I also invite you to read my hub on Judah's Daughter called "The Elect of God".
Carrie, we could toss scriptures back and forth, and what we think they are saying for a life time and accomplish nothing, but its God that does all the work in us. I've seen all the scriptures that have been provided to you by others. Its useless for me to do what they couldn't do.
I have what I call Spiritual common sense that comes from a personal relationship of having walked with God in places of the darkest and lowest places that would literally kill the average person or drive them insane. I have lived scriptures that most people know only from reading.
Gods word is Spirit, and His word is in the bible, but that's not where His Spirit lives , nor do I have to have someone quote scripture to me that most of the world can't even come close to understanding. They except it, but they don't understand. I know some very important things that you can't see, but your walk is not the same as mine.
Can't you see that people that quote scripture on and on, back and forth it goes with neither budging? Its because you are butting heads with Gods intentions. I said it earlier that God intends for you to do what you do, and vise verse. Even you trying to prove or convert us back to your way, or someone exposing you as false doctrine. I don't know what Gods reasons are for these debates but obviously its for something beyond our understanding with our weak and feeble minds and hearts.
Most people can mimic scriptures, but have they lived them, and do they have Gods word in their heart. How about you?Have you ever been dragged to the lowest and darkest place beyond your imagination and worst nightmare, shredded to pieces 24/7 in ways that one will never forget, or able to even describe, just to make you cry out to God? This is how God called me, and I'm being very honest that I put that extremely mild in the way He called me.
If you haven't lived the scriptures the way I have, then you can't prove anything to me with quoting scriptures and what you think they say.
God has revealed a lot of things to me through mans teachings, and that includes Ray Smith, but its God I count on to carry me beyond that.
All is of God. Even you, and Ray Smith.
By the way; I am not a Ray Smith follower. I studied and believe his teachings but the road to learning continues up and down the roads that God walks me through in trials and tribulations, and last but most important is that one on one relationship that comes from no man but from God Himself.
Roy, where does God's Spirit live? And, you are right: "I don't know what Gods reasons are for these debates but obviously its for something beyond our understanding with our weak and feeble minds and hearts."
The answer is found in Eph 6:12 "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places."
I can say God has called me to Sow the Seed of the gospel. He is the only One Who brings the increase, according to His will. The truth wins ~ and it will not return void. This is my faith. May God continue His work in you and me ~ for He is faithful to complete it until He comes again (Phil 1:6).
Carrie you said,"The answer is found in Eph 6:12 "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places."
And I say, but its God that subjects us to these things to humble us. You know the scripture, but do you believe it?
Carrie, I've been reading this page which by the way has taken me all evening to get through and I would like to raise a few issues with you.
Be asured that Ray Smith loves Jesus and the word of God. Spend some time reading his material, He afirms these facts time and time again. You are in no place to make judgements upon his spiritual state.
You also acuse anyone who has opposing theological views to yours as being under strong delusion, or following after false doctrines of demons. This is nonsense. Just because people question the recieved wisdom of the church today, it does not necessarily mean they are deluded by Satan or unsaved. Then in your response to Roy D you quote Hebrews 6:4-6. Are you seriously suggesting that he has forfeited his salvation because he questions the church or your theology? Does questioning the doctine of eternal punishment in the LoF really equate to departing from the truth or falling away from God and repentance? Look, the Cathloic church has insisted for centuries that they and the only represent the will of God on this earth and have claimed sole ownership of the truth.
Now Jesus said that many would say Lord Lord.....did we not do this or did we not do that. He talked about many false prophets, many false teachers. Those that question eternal punishment in the LoF are not many, they are the few. If you want to see many false prophets, turn on the TV, TBN is full of money grabbing liars who persuade people with made up stories about going on day trips to heaven and hell. They claim to cast out demons. They claim God has annointed them, whilst all the time robbing the widows and orphans. You want to see people under strong delusion, look no further than the simpering audiences who laugh and clap hands at the idea of eternal torture, whilst hanging on ever word of these Word of Faith flakes.
Concerning the LoF:
Rev 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulphur. This is the second death."
Notice that this list includes the cowardly. The KJV uses the term the fearful. Who are these people? Are these people who were fearful of sharing their faith in Jesus? If so, then plenty of Christians will end up in the Lake of Fire. Some people are fearful of driving on motorways. Perhaps these people too will end up there. What about those who came to faith because those TV ministries frightened them about being sent to Hell to be tortured by Satan. Maybe Jesus doesn’t consider this to be a good enough reason to come to Him, so they end up in the Lake of Fire too.
So what happens to all these people who are cast into the Lake? They are tormented right? Not necessarily. How long are they in the Lake for? Eternity? Not necessarily. Rev 20:10 explicitly tells us about the fate of the Devil, Beast and False prophet, so we assume that anyone else cast into the Lake of Fire will also be tormented for all eternity too. But that is NOT what bible says. It says NOTHING other than they will be thrown in. To say that people will be tormented for eternity here is to make a huge assumption: it is adding these assumptions to God’s word, and thereby one runs the risk of God adding to oneself the plagues written in Revelation (Rev 22:18).
Literal Lake of Fire? Literal or symbolic of something else . Well lets look at Revelation as a whole.
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John NKJ
Signify • verb (signifies, signfied) 1 be an indication of. 2 be a symbol of; have as meaning. 3 indicate or declare (a feeling or intention). 4 be of importance: the locked door doesn’t necessarily signify.
Rev 1: Does Jesus literally walk around with a medieval broadsword hanging out of His mouth? No, the sword is symbolic of His word.
Rev 2: Does Jesus spend His time walking about between seven literal lampstands? No, the lampstands are symbolic of the seven churches.
Rev 3: Does Jesus hold seven literal stars in His hand? No, stars are billions of times larger than the Earth. The stars are symbolic of the angels of the seven churches.
Rev 4: Is the sea before the throne literally made of glass? No, glass at room temperature is a solid, and sea is made of water.
Rev 5: Do lambs literally have seven horns and seven eyes? No they have two of each. The seven eyes are symbolic of the seven spirits of God.
Rev 6: Are the four horsemen riding four literal horses? No, horses can only travel at 30mph so couldn’t possibly visit the whole Earth, and horses aren’t available in red.
Rev 7: Can four angels stand at four literal corners of the Earth? No, the Earth is spherical and in order to have four corners, it would have to be flat with four distinct sides.
Rev 8: Can eagles literally talk? No.
Rev 9: Is it possible that somewhere upon the Earth there is a literal bottomless pit? No, the Earth is finite in diameter, so a bottomless pit is impossible unless it constitutes a hole that passes all the way through.
Rev 10: Does thunder literally speak intelligent words? No, thunder is the sound waves generated when a high voltage electrical current turns a column of air to plasma which forces a rapid expansion of the surrounding air.
Rev 11: Do olive trees have literal mouths from which they can breathe literal fire? No.
Rev 12: Can a woman literally be clothed with the sun, stand on the literal moon, and wear twelve literal stars on her head? No, she would be incinerated.
Rev 13: Are we really going to see a literal beast with seven heads, ten horns and ten crowns walk up the local beach? No, such a thing would be no match against a helicopter gunship.
Rev 14: Is Babylon literally going to fall again? No, Babylon was completely desolate by 141BC by the time the Parthian Empire took over the region.
Rev 15: Literal sea of glass again?
Rev 16: Can a literal bowl of some reactive substance be literally poured out upon the sun? No, it would have to be a bowl of several million miles in diameter containing something extremely potent to have a significant effect upon the sun.
Rev 17: Will a literal woman who drinks literal blood ride about on the back of a literal scarlet beast? No, this chapter already gives us the interpretation of the symbology of the woman and the beast.
Rev 18: Literal Babylon falling again? No.
Rev 19 & 20: Literal lake of fire?
If we accept the opening statement of Revelation that the book is symbolic; if we accept that the first 18 chapters describe things that are symbolic; how can we then say that out of the whole book of symbolic things, the lake of fire is literal? It makes no logical sense. The Lake of fire must also be symbolic of something else.
For the Lake of Fire to be a literal lake made of literal fire, then we would have to say that real seven headed dragon type beasts will be roaming about, and people will be tormented by giant locusts having scorpions tails, human heads, lions teeth and women’s hair. If the Book of Revelation is literal, then perhaps we should take the Greek myths or Harry Potter Stories as real true life accounts as well. How many times have we seen films like the Lord of the Rings and thought, “Stuff your crappy sword Frodo, what you need is a Stealth Bomber and a laser guided fuel air bomb if you really want to take out Sauron.” In the same way, how can we believe that man will be overcome by literal mutant ninja locust-scorpion type things? Hand out the Uzi-9mms and everyone will be ok.
Roy, just as we don't battle with flesh and blood, God gives His children spiritual weaponry: 2 Cor 10:4 "for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses." Yes, I have every faith in God's Word, for He saved me and lives in me. Amen.
Kev, regarding my reading of L. Ray Smith's material? I have, and can't get through but two paragraphs before his twisted interpretation poisons the reader. Every time I open a new posting by Ray, the same thing ~~ he is way off the mark.
I think all teachings should be tested by the Word of God, not man's interpretation. I challenged the teaching of the traditional church that Lucifer was an archangel who started the war in heaven, then became the Devil. This is false. Lucifer was never an archangel and is not the Devil. You can check out my hubs on Judah's Daughter called "Is Lucifer the Devil?" and "Lucifer: The spirit of Antichrist".
The Catholic church departed from the truth when one could buy their salvation or guarantee the salvation of a lost loved one in "Pergatory" with money. So many things are unbiblical in the Catholic doctrine. I would not stand against their teachings, if they aligned with the Word of God.
Regarding those who do works in His Name and are told to "Depart", read about the seven sons of Sceva in Acts 19:13-16 to answer this question.
Jesus forgives our sins. Those who practice sin without the covering of Jesus Christ will be cast into the Lake of Fire. One cannot overcome sin without the indwelling Holy Spirit that comes through salvation by grace through faith in Him; faith which comes by hearing the Word of God. Jesus is the One Who told us about hell. He would know, and I believe His Word, for He is not a liar.
Do you believe Satan and his angels will be saved, too? Afterall, he and his demons and all whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life will be cast into it. While you believe mankind will be taken out of it after a time (which is completely false), Satan and his demons stay? Or you are a Universalist that believes even Satan and his demons will be saved, too?
While much of Revelation is symbolic, the angels describe what the symbolism literally represents. By the way, there will be no more sea in the New Heaven and New Earth (Rev 21:1). The Lake of Fire is described as fire and brimstone and is not only mentioned in Revelation, but many more scriptures; start with these: Mt 5:22 & 5:29, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15 and 23:33; M'r 9:43, 9:45 and 9:47; Lu 12:5; Jas 3:6. Feel free to read my hub on Judah's Daughter called "Where or What is HELL?". Brimstone is inflamable sulpher, and sulpher is only found in earth.
Hi Carrie,
I am new to Christianity although I've read alot of material on the different beliefs held by different denominations (weird that there are different beliefs stemming from one bible). I am only 14 so please be gentle!
You said this to Timpaul in one of your comments: 'We don't know if your grandparents are in heaven ~ but we do know that if they NEVER heard the gospel and didn't know better, the Word says they are without sin.'
Where in the bible was this said?
How can anyone be without sin? Romans 3:23 says 'For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God'
You are saying that Timpaul's grandparents are without sin just because they have not heard the gospel?
What about murderers who have not heard the gospel too?
This is confusing. As far as I know, ALL are born sinners. None is righteous, no, not one.
Also, may I know your stand on evil? Did God create evil?
Thank you!
Bless your heart, Sha. I'm glad you stopped in. It is a fact that all are born into sin since Adam and Eve's fall. Jesus said in John 15:22, "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin." So, for those who believe in God, for His existence is known instinctively (Romans 1:20), but have never heard the gospel that Jesus Christ came to die for their sins, and thus never had the opportunity to accept or reject the gospel, they are "excused".
All I know is that Satan was a murderer from the beginning, meaning he had a beginning (John 8:44). The Bible says God created all things, both in heaven and on earth (Rev 10:6). Satan is allowed to exist for God's purpose ~ Satan is used as God's discipline tool and tester of our faith, as well as for God's wrath.
I have several hubs on my other hub profile "Judah's Daughter" that will give you all kinds of topics to read about.
http://hubpages.com/profile/Judah%27s+Daughter
I'd be happy to be here (and there on Judah's Daughter) for you and answer your questions the best I can. God bless you!
Hi Carrie,
Thanks for your reply.
I was thinking, if people are excused because they have never heard of the gospel and God commanded His people to sow the seeds (minister and spread the gospel), isn't God indirectly sending millions to hell?
God would have to take the risk of losing more souls by spreading the word since men's free will would not confirm that they will accept the gospel. Would it not have been better for the gospel not to be spread and more saved?
I have also heard that few would be saved (broad is the way to destruction). Does that mean God has already lost (or is currently losing) the battle for souls with Satan?
Carrie, Kev provided you with more than enough to prove the L.O.F. is symbolic.
You provided these scriptures.Mt 5:22 & 5:29, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15 and 23:33; M'r 9:43, 9:45 and 9:47; Lu 12:5; Jas 3:6
Are you saying that these scriptures are literal, and Rev. scriptures are symbolic? That would be a contradiction, completely conflicting.
It seems like you didn't address the point he made with all of the bible truth. You answer his questions with questions.
Do you think I, or we don't love God because we left your kind of teachings of an evil god? We pray and seek and study Gods word. We love God and believe that He didn't create most of humanity just to burn us forever. You believe He created humanity and messed up, and is a loser of His creation to Satan, and now He has to torment all of us lost souls that He is powerless to save.
Your belief is total heresy and blasphemes.Yet this is the vessel God has made you, and you can do nothing of your own to change yourself, but God isn't going to torment you for it. He could even open your eyes just as He did us.
Yes and yes, we love God, and you call us a cult. Is everyone that doesn't agree with you a cult? What the heck is a cult anyway? Its just a stupid word that has nothing more than a stupid meaning. I have never considered anyone to be a cult. The way someone believes is not a cult. Why do you put us down for loving God. I don't put you down because you love him for what you see Him as. Just the bad things you say about Him. We don't say bad things about Him anymore and according to you we are lost and you have taken it on yourself to bring us back with your seed spreading. How many has came back to your way?
Sha, keep in mind that those who love God (because they have an innate knowledge of Him) are the ones excused if they did not hear the gospel of salvation that comes by His grace and through faith in Him. Those who create their own gods and worship the creation rather than the Creator have no such grace. They are without excuse. Romans 1:20 states, "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."
God will not save all, as is stated clearly in Luke 13:23-24: "And someone said to Him, 'Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?; And He said to them, 'Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.'"
Because people are saved by His grace through faith (Eph 2:8), and because faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Rom 10:17), the great commission was given to "Go into all the world and preach the gospel" (Mark 16:15). And, because the "god of this world" blinds the minds of the unbelieving (2 Cor 4:4), they can only have hope by this saving faith. They will not be victimized by Satan's lies and oppression, leading them to worship false gods, etc., which puts them on the direct road to destruction.
Our ways of thinking are not God's ways. The wisom of Man is foolishness to God. We cannot question what His Word says or assume He has lost anything. Some things are not for us to understand now ~ we only know in part until He comes again (1 Cor 13:12). Be blessed.
Roy, As I said, the angels in Revelation describe the literal meaning of the symbolic language (i.e. the seven heads are seven kingdoms, and the horns are kings; the Woman is the City of Babylon, etc.) Do you believe God created Man? Are you real or symbolic? Pinch yourself. Do you believe Jesus Christ really existed or was He symbolic? Jesus told us about Hell, which is unseen to us until one gets there. He warned us, described Hell, and the definitions and other writings in the Bible make it clear.
Look at 2 Peter 2:4: "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;"...HELL here means Tartaroo, which is defined as the "deepest abyss of Hades". Where was the rich man that could not go and tell his brothers? In Hades (Luke 16:23). The Lake of Fire is Geenna, the final judgment, where these angels who sinned (currently in Tartaroo) will end up. Let's go on to verses 5-6 "and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an EXAMPLE to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;"...just keep on reading!
Look at Jude 1:6-7: "And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day; just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an EXAMPLE in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire." ETERNAL is the Greek word "aiónios", which is defined as "perpetual:-eternal, forever, everlasting."
1 Peter 3:18-19 tell us "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He MIGHT bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water."
Where are these "angels who sinned", "angels in eternal bonds" and "spirits now in prison"? Where is Tartaroo/Hades? Let's look at Ephesians 4:9 "(Now this expression, 'He ascended,' what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?" Was Jesus buried in a grave in the lower parts of the earth? No. He was buried in a tomb on the surface of the earth.
If you want to join Hell NO, whose read my hub called "Where or What is HELL?" http://hubpages.com/hub/The-Location-of-HELL , please do. Are we not to fear God? Jesus said in Matthew 10:28, "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." The word HELL here is Geenna (the Lake of Fire). For, the bodies of unbelievers will not be resurrected to face the Judgment seat of Christ, and the subsequent judgment of the Lake of Fire (second death) until after His millennial reign (Rev 20:7-15).
Believers are resurrected at the beginning of the millennial reign; over which the second death has no power (Rev 20:5-6). Believers will never see judgment (Romans 8:1).
Now is the time of salvation, Roy (2 Cor 6:2). God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ez 18:23-28), but holds Man accountable (without excuse: John 15:22; Romans 2:20) ~ those who have heard the gospel and rejected it (John 12:48).
Carrie my last post was intended for The location of hell Hub.
I'm on the wrong page.
Roy, I have responded to you there. Be blessed.
Carrie, I'm not suggesting that Ray Smith has an accurate view on everything, however he does demonstrate that a number of doctrines going about these days are unscriptural. Such as: the Christian tithe; the health and propserity Word of Faith movement ideology; the idea that man has an immortal spirit; the idea that upon death we immediately ascend either to heaven or hell; the idea that in the grave/sheol/hades there is any thought or conciousness let alone torture at the hands of the devil prior to resurection at the GWT.
It is refreshing to see though that you appear to agree that the Devil was never some perfect created angelic being that went bad. Though I have not read your hub on this, I am satisfied by Jesus' statement that the Devil was a muderer from the beginning; John's that he was a sinner from the beginning; and that Isaiah 14 was talking abou the King of Babylon and him only. This understanding of the Devil's true origin as being created bad by God in the first place makes a significant dent in the orthodox view of God's master plan from creation.
No I don't believe that Satan will be saved from the LoF. Though we may have some sympathy for the devil in this respect, Rev 20:10 is clear and unambiguous that they will be tomented day and night for ages of the ages in the Greek. However, the fate of man here is ambiguous. Rev 20:15, and Rev 21:8 both state that the unbelieving will also be thrown in, but the glaring ommision is the purpose, the torment and the duration. It is by assumption and that only that orthodoxy says their fate is exactly the same as the devil's.
Not forgetting of course that we have proven that Revelation is symbolic, the imagery is not literal. If horses do not come in red, if there will not literally be a beast with seven heads, and a womsn will not be clothed in the sun, then we must also accept that the LoF is not literal but symbolic.
When Jesus used the term Gehenna, He was of course refering to the valley of the sons of Hinnom that runs to the south west of Jerusalem and was the city dump. In Mark 9: 47-48, Jesus describes Gehenna as having worms that do not die and where the fire is not quenched. Perhaps maggot fits better than worm. Now maggots mature into flies; flies mate and lay eggs; and eggs hatch into more maggots. So worms that do not die are clearly talking about the dump being infested with maggots. Maggots are a good thing. Maggots eat up the putrid rotting filth. In medieval times they were used to clean wounds. Surgeons today use them to eat up dead flesh so that wounds can heal. So once the rubbish is eaten up, the worms die out.
Similarly, unquenchable fire does not necessarily mean eternal fire. In 2008 huge areas of Australia were subject to out of control bush fires. California seems to experience wildfires every year. These fires are unquenchable, but once the wood, the stubble, the hay, is consumed, the fire burns out. It is temporal. Gehenna was deliberately set on fire in order to prevent disease and to cleans the valley, it served a purpose.
Remember that Jesus ONLY ever spoke in parables to the crowds, Matthew 13:10, 13-14, 34-35. Therefore he was using Gehenna as a picture, in a non-literal manner. Similarly the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is precisely that, a parable. I have done a study of all 76 references to sheol/hades and in 75 of these there is no mention of post death torment. Only unconciousness, sleeping, and the fate shared by all good and bad, until a future resurection.
Check out the online Jewish encyclopedia definition of sheol at
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=6
Does the single reference to conciousness and torment in this parable nullify all other 75 depictions? No that would be absurd. I had been in complete confusion over the meaning of this parable for a long time and somehow the church's interpretation just didn't fit logical analysis. Even if you never read anything by Ray Smith, I would urge you to at least read his interpretation of the Rich Man and Lazarus. It's pretty uncontroversial and to me at least was a revelation. If it was writen by someone else, you would probably happily read it, but you allow the words Ray Smith to put you off.
The main issue with Ray Smith as I see it is that he begins with the LoF refuting the orthodoxy and has then scoured the scriptures to build a case for universalism. I will agree with him that a literal LoF for eternal burning of sinners is illogical, contradicts the laws of physics and chemistry, and is contrary to the nature of God. However I see no definitve evidence for universalism, just a lot of scripture that could hint at it. You do quote some valid scripture refuting his view and after reading his entire work over the last few months, he simply does not address many of the scriptures you raise.
Nevertheless, against the orthodox view of eternal buring there are a number of issues that the church consistently fails to resolve:
After the LoF events, we have the account of the New Jerusalem. In Rev 22:15 we are told that the cowardly, unbelieving, murderers, sorcerers, etc are outside and not permitted to enter. Now what has happened here? Have these people been removed from the LoF and now are placed on the New Earth but outside the city? If this is the case, then even if the LoF is literal it would appear they are no longer being torched. If the light of God is in the city, then these people are now outside in the darkness. Literal fire is not dark, it emits an awful lot of light. Now you may say the darkness is symbolic of being outside of God's favour, etc, but then you allow yourself to pick and choose the literal and symbolic to suit your theology.
The phrase “weeping and gnashing of teeth” has six uses in Matthew. Two uses are people being cast into the firey furnace, and three uses are of being cast into the darkness. This suggests that the furnace is synonymous with the LoF and synonymous with the outer darkness outside the city. Both images LoF and darkness convey quite different fates. One of being in a firey torment, one of being wandering about in the cold in emotional torment. So which is it?
On a pure numbers game the the Devil has the victory and Jesus' mission to save mankind has failed. 1 Tim 2:3-4 states "This is good, and pleases God our Saviour, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth". It isn’t good if 95% of the population go to burn for eternity and it certainly won’t please God either. Orthodoxy is also forced to downgrade God's will in this verse to a mere wishful aspiration. How then do you reconcile this will (aspiration only) with Isaiah 46:9-11 "I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. From the
east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do."?
If God's will is all men be saved but this word is not accomplished, then we have a contradiction with Isaiah 55:8-11 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish, so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater, so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it."
Now the fall of man did not catch God out. He is not running a disaster recovery plan. He placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden when He simply didn’t need to. He knew that the devil who He created as a bad adversary would at some point bring about the fall. He planned Jesus as the sacrifice for sin from the foundation of the world. Everything that
Kev, Looks like your comment was too long for HubPages limits. Now, the following are the things you identified as “unscriptural” teachings by orthodox Christianity:
1. The Christian tithe and the health and prosperity Word of Faith movement ideology:
Answer: I agree. To practice the OC nullifies the NC, and to live in the NC nullifies the OC. Here’s my Bible Study results on “tithing”: http://hubpages.com/hub/Tithing--Giving-and-Alms Not ALL Christian denominations go against Biblical teaching.
2. The idea that man has an immortal spirit and the idea that upon death we immediately ascend either to heaven or hell; the idea that in the grave/sheol/hades there is any thought or consciousness let alone torture at the hands of the devil prior to resurrection at the GWT:
Answer: Jesus said we will never die, even if we physically die. John 11:25-26: "Jesus said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?'" Here’s my Bible Study results on life after death: http://hubpages.com/hub/Beyond-Death-What-the-Bibl
Regarding the Devil, here’s my hub regarding him: http://hubpages.com/hub/Is-Lucifer-the-Devil
You said, “No I don't believe that Satan will be saved from the LoF. Though we may have some sympathy for the devil in this respect, Rev 20:10 is clear and unambiguous that they will be tormented day and night for ages of the ages in the Greek.”
Answer: You have sympathy for the devil? Wow. I don’t. Now, there’s only one Lake of Fire. You obviously know that the Antichrist and False Prophet are cast into it prior to the millennial reign, and Satan is cast into it post-millennial reign. Do you believe the Antichrist and False Prophet are men? Do you believe what Revelation says about the Dragon ~ that he rises up out of the “sea” of peoples, nations, tribes and tongues and that the Antichrist is given his power through them? They will worship the beast and receive his mark, sealing their fate to the LoF? How do you explain the Devil, the Antichrist, False Prophet and Satan staying in the LoF, but mankind will only be in it for a time? Are we saved by fire? That would negate the atonement of Christ Jesus. Why would He have to die, if all are saved by fire? Eph 2:8 states, “For by grace are you saved through fire”. Ooops; that’s not what it says.
You said the account of the rich man and Lazarus was a parable.
Answer: Look up the word “parable” in the Bible. You will see that every parable was preceded with that terminology, identifying the parable as such. That terminology is NOT used when it comes to this account. Obviously, the rich man and Abraham were conscious and talking. If they were dead without consciousness, Jesus would not have contradicted truth. If the rich man were alive and in some spiritual “hades”, he could have gone and told his brothers himself. And, why didn’t Abraham tell the rich man, “Don’t worry; you’re only in there for a time and you will be delivered one day and join us over here.”
Regarding Sheol; it is the same word as Hades in the Greek. Sheol/Hades is not Geenna. Sheol/Hades is not the Lake of Fire. Luke 16:23 states, “In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment” and in verse 24 he says, “for I am in anguish in this flame.” We can only go by what the Bible says, and what Jesus says at that.
You said the LoF “contradicts the laws of physics and chemistry”:
Answer: Fire and brimstone is physical. Brimstone cannot be found in space. When we are raised incorruptible, as the Bible says in 1 Cor 15:52, it is we who will defy the laws of physics and chemistry. Have you read my hub “Where or What is HELL”?: http://hubpages.com/hub/The-Location-of-HELL
Regarding Rev 22:15, was the Valley of Hinnom outside the City? Remember, that the only people who will view this ongoing torment will be the holy angels and the Lamb (Rev 14:10). Regarding unquenchable and eternal, they are the same. If any fire can be quenched, even in time, it is not “unquenchable”.
God’s will has been prophesied in His Word, including those who will go to Hades and the Lake of Fire. I wonder how long He existed without people? “I AM” says it all. Those who receive Him through faith in Him will dwell with Him; those who do not will not. That is His will, and He will accomplish His will, as it is written.
Carrie,
Please Answer Kev’s Question – You seem to be skirting a crux question here?
“After the LoF events, we have the account of the New Jerusalem. In Rev 22:15 we are told that the cowardly, unbelieving, murderers, sorcerers, etc are outside and not permitted to enter. Now what has happened here? Have these people been removed from the LoF and now are placed on the New Earth but outside the city?”
Who are these People??? After the Lake of Fire events???
King James: Rev 22:14-15
14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
New International Version: Rev 22:14-15
14"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.
15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
Amplified Bible: Rev 22:14-15
14Blessed (happy and [a]to be envied) are those who cleanse their garments, that they may have the authority and right to [approach] the tree of life and to enter through the gates into the city.
15[But] without are the dogs and those who practice sorceries (magic arts) and impurity [the lewd, adulterers] and the murderers and idolaters and everyone who loves and deals in falsehood (untruth, error, deception, cheating).
Young’s Literal Translation: Rev 22:14-15
14`Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city;
15and without [are] the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a lie.
If the events of the Lake of Fire have already occurred and the “the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a lie” has already been cast into a literal & Physical Lake of Fire then who are these people???
But, who am I to understand the Conscience and Purpose of GOD? I’m Just a sinner that seeks his Grace & Mercy.
What is your response to the question? I’m sure your readers would love to see your explanation.
Putt B
Putt B, I thought it was understood, but here we go:
Just as the Valley of Hinnom (Geenna) was the burning refuse heap outside the earthly city of Jerusalem, so here the "lake of fire" is the refuse heap of those outside of the Heavenly City.
"If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the LAKE OF FIRE...the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars have their part in the LAKE THAT BURNS WITH FIRE... the [New Jerusalem] has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and the Lamb is the light of it. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it...and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life...Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. Outside [IN THE LAKE OF FIRE] are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying." (Rev 20:15; 21:8; 21:23-24,27; 22:14-15).
Keep in context!! Be blessed.
Kev, I have written responses to your "hub" comments and will publish two hubs to answer them (one for each).
Hi Carrie,
I quote you 'Sha, keep in mind that those who love God (because they have an innate knowledge of Him) are the ones excused if they did not hear the gospel of salvation that comes by His grace and through faith in Him. Those who create their own gods and worship the creation rather than the Creator have no such grace. They are without excuse.'
Here is what I do not understand. If they have an innate knowledge of God but have not heard of the Gospel, then is it really their fault that they worship other gods (which to them, are the real deal)and not the Christian one since they've never even heard of Him?
Sha, read Hebrews 11. They did not have Christ Jesus in the flesh; they knew Who their God was and worshiped only Him. Likewise, read the Old Testament and see those who followed pagan gods, such as the prophets of Baal and note how God dealt with them. God is God and He reveals Himself; it is not our knowledge of who, what, where, when and why. How did they know? Adam and Eve knew who God was and taught it to their children, who taught it to their children; some received the truth and some denied it. AMEN.
Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. For the TIME IS COME that JUDGMENT MUST BEGIN AT THE HOUSE OF GOD..." (I Pet. 4:16-17).
2Th 2:3 Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that Day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition,
Sons of perdition are the many called not the few chosen. The many called shall be disciplined, set straight through the suffering of LOSS of all their false security both physical and spiritual.
Carrie, you say I have been misled and fell away from truth.I have seen the presentations of scriptural proof that you insistently refuse to believe.You don't qualify to be calling anyone a cult. This hub supposedly inspired for us is an absolute mockery and denial of truth of which you have proved by everything that you perceive as truth. You can't see beyond your physical nose. I doubt very seriously that you have drawn any of us back to your lies.If anything you make your lies more obvious to those that come here and lead them to Bible truth, Ray Smith. Your doing a good job. Keep it up.
Roy, talk about a lying spirit! You said, “Sons of perdition are the many called not the few chosen.”
Let’s see if what L. Ray Smith teaches, which you quoted above, aligns with Scripture:
John 17:12 “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.” Who was the son of perdition here? That would be Judas.
Was Judas called or chosen? John 6:70 confirms: “Jesus answered them, ‘Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?’" He was chosen! What do you know?!
You quoted 2 Thes 2:3, but neglect to get the clarification as to who the son of perdition is in verses 4- 8: “who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God… Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming.”
That would be THE ANTICHRIST to come. Is he a called one? Drawn to salvation by the Holy Ghost? I would say NOT.
You said, “This hub supposedly inspired for us is an absolute mockery and denial of truth of which you have proved by everything that you perceive as truth.” Thank you. That was my objective ~ to make a mockery of L. Ray Smith’s teaching, proving it by the absolute truth.
Carrie, never in my 56 years have I met anyone until you that absolutely knows everything, and is never wrong about anything.You sound as if you have been studying scriptures for 2000 years. Your opinion and perception goes way below me.
I guess all of my trials and tribulations, and many many testimonies of which you will never hear, and all the changing God has done in me was just my imagination that tricked me into believing was from God, but it was all from Satan instead. I guess Satan didn't want me to wrap people that had done me wrong in duct tape and break their legs. I guess Satan didn't want me selling all those drugs to the Judges, Lawyers and surgical Doctors. I gave up wheel barrels full of money for Satan. Oh and he also wants me to love and have compassion for people I use to hate.
I don't know but this Satan guy doesn't sound so bad to me considering all the good things he wants me to do and be.And the biggest thing is he wants me to pray and ask God to forgive me and continue His good work in me.He also wants me to pray for guidance and truth.
Now I'm really confused to say the least.Will you pray for me Carrie?
Roy, you need to read Jesus' parable in Mat 13 (if He will allow you to understand) of the Seed and the various things that come after the Seed, once it is sown in verses 3-9. He explains the meaning to His disciples in verses 18-23.
Now, you said the disciples didn't understand Jesus' parables until after they received the Holy Spirit (that would be on the Day of Pentecost)? What does Jesus say to them in Mat 13:16? "But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear."
Why do you think Paul says in 2 Cor 11:13-15 "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds."
You do notice that the very first temptation of Satan to Eve was to mis-quote the Word of God, don't you? He's sly and crafty. A good liar gets away with his lies most of the time; an excellent liar almost all of the time; the father of lies is nearly indistiguishable. Satan doesn't run around in a red suit with horns (as you know). This is why we must know the Word of God, for it is the proper quoting of it that defeats him.
Notice also that Satan quoted scripture to Jesus in the desert, but he left out portions (thus twisting its meaning), but Jesus only combatted him with quoting the accurate scriptures! Jesus did not use His own words, but quoted Scripture exactly as it was written ~ "It is written," He said.
If you're serious, Roy ~ of course, I am praying for you, as I said. You must know how grievous it is for me to see the slyness and craftiness of false teachers deceiving innocent hearts (motives).
Paul rebuked false teachers in Acts 13:10 as follows: ""You who are full of all deceit and fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord?" He, too felt the emotions of Christ, as I do!!
Please, don't harden your heart ~ I will help you in any way I can. Now, if you're mocking me, note that I do not mock you. That should tell you what spirit is at work. Be blessed.
Kev, if you look seven comments above, you will see that I wrote two hubs for you. Start here: http://hubpages.com/hub/Answer-to-Kev-Universal-Sa
Gina, I have prepared a hub to your comment with my answer here: http://hubpages.com/hub/Response-to-Gina-L-Ray-Smi
36 minutes late...lol. I'd saw some links on my old 'favorites' and had emailed L.Ray Smith a long time ago about some issues I had with his teachings--even gave him a very clear understanding of Easter, and how 3 nights and days in the grave worked out totally with what scripture said--his crazy response about 'a spiritual 3 days' were totally outside of what scripture plainly states.
Thanks for all your past work on this, Carrie.
Lyndon, I will check in periodically and especially will approve supportive comments! As you can witness, the Universalists leave extremely lengthy and twisted comments that require a lot of time and effort of which I realize I'm not responsible to help them "see the light". They've turned away from the truth, and the Bible says it is impossible to renew them again to repentance (Heb 6:6). Thank you so much for your support and I'm glad you have eyes to SEE, that no false teacher will cause you to wander away from our Lord! Be blessed!
ATTENTION READERS:
FURTHER UNIVERSALIST COMMENTS WILL BE DENIED AT THIS TIME, AS I SIMPLY DO NOT HAVE TIME TO RESPOND. I WILL NOTIFY IN THE FUTURE, IF I WILL BE TAKING YOUR COMMENTS. MAY GOD BLESS ALL WHO READ UNTO HIS GLORY. AMEN.
Hi, carrie. Am here once again. Just want to correct you. You really said in one of your responses that Jesus spoke of hell more than heaven. Not heaven more than anyone. This is not a universalist comment. I am a restorationist.
Would you stand to prove it, timpaul? I never said He spoke about hell more than heaven. I said, and I state it again, "Jesus spoke about hell more than anyone". Whether you're a Universalist or Restorationist, I am a Christian, a "salvationist" and "evangelist".
Pray that I Cor. 14:38 not apply.
Then they said to the woman, "Now we believe, not just because of what you told us, but because we have heard him ourselves. Now we know that he is indeed the Savior of the world." John 4:42
James, 1 Cor 14:38 in context is about the relationship of husband [aner] and wife [gune] in the church, and the ordinances of how tongues and prophecy are to be used in the church. Not sure what you are implying? Do you think women are not to preach? You might need some education on this topic from my hub, "Your Daughters Shall Prophesy!"
http://hubpages.com/_ui1xcnn62gpk/hub/Your-Daughte
As far as John 4:42, this is regarding the Samaritan (hated by the Jews) woman that told the Samaritans about Jesus at the well, who then believed (begin in verse 39). They went to Jesus and invited Him to stay with them two days. Consider that Israel (the Jews) were the only ones to which salvation had been promised throughout the scriptures. Verse 42 reveals that Jesus Christ loves the whole world and desires men everywhere repent and receive salvation. He is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34)
John 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
Acts 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
1 Tim 4:10 "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers." Did you notice that it's the 'living God who is the Savior of all men'? Do you believe Jesus Christ is God in the flesh?
Why especially of believers? Those who refuse to believe or preach another way to salvation (Jesus said He is the only Way) nullify His grace (Gal 2:21). While He died for them, and they have the invitation for salvation, they are the ones who refuse to love the truth so as to be saved (2 Thes 2:10).
John 3:16 "For God so loved [agapao] the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOEVER believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
Agapao love is the same love as we are to have for our enemies ~ a social, moral, principled love.
It takes two to enter a Covenant relationship with God. All are invited (called) - Mat 22:9, but few are chosen (enter that Covenant relationship). Once someone does believe (as the Samaritans), and entrust their spiritual well being to Christ (that's what believe means), he is saved. He then is considered adopted into God's family [sheep] and has God's agape love.
A verse that uses "agape" love in it is found in John 15:13: "Greater love [agape] has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends." Consider also his friends are sheep: "The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." (John 10:11) ~ the rest are 'goats'. Remember the nullification of His grace?
Now, speaking of 'friends', what does James 4:4 tell us? "do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God."
Not all will be saved. Prophecy states as such. Consider Luke 13:23 "And someone said to Him, 'Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?' And He said to them, Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able." Cross-reference Mat 7:13 (gate)
What is that narrow 'door' [thuras] or 'gate' [pules]? Jesus said in John 10:7, "I AM the door [thuras] of the sheep" and two verses down, He says, "I AM the gate [pules]".
Man does not pay for his own sin in the lake of fire. That is 'another gospel', 'another way', of which is there is no other. "Jesus paid it all; all to Him I owe; sin hath left a crimson stain ~ He washed it white as snow." If believers still struggle with sin, read Rom 7:15-8:1 and know this is why we needed a Savior. Love Him, because He first loved you.
GENESIS 2:17 God said: "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,thou shall not eat of it:for in the day that thou eatest of thereof thou SHALL SURELY DIE."
GENESIS 3:4-5 The serpent said: "Ye SHALL NOT SURELY DIE."
JOHN 11:26 Jesus said: "And whosoever liveth and BELIEVETH in me SHALL NEVER DIE."
1 John 3:18 "He that believes on Him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
1 John 5:12 "He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."
Why would God want to burn people forever ? I know you say it's not God who does this but he was the one that created it, and I believe he know's everything that's going to happen. So why would go forward with a plan to have people who simply don't believe to be tortured for forever. I see nothing fair about burning anyone forever ! Even we as mere human's have a justice system that try's to give a just punishment to fit the crime. What could a person do in this speck of time we call life that could be justified for burning without end ? I love God and Im very thankful for all He has blessed me with but this subject has troubled me for years.
Doug Kirk - Ez 33:11 tells us clearly, "'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live." The word 'death' here is from the Hebrew root muwth; death (natural or violent); concretely, the dead, their place or state (hades); figuratively, pestilence, ruin -- (be) dead((-ly)), death, die(-d).
Jesus said in John 12:47, “If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge [krino] him; for I did not come to judge [krino] the world, but to save the world.” We must not stop there. The next verse tells us, “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges [krino] him; the word I spoke is what will judge [krino] him at the last day.”
Now, understand something VERY important. The world is ALREADY JUDGED (condemned) [krino] – “He who believes in Him is not judged [krino]; he who does not believe has been judged [krino] already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” (John 3:18).
The demons know they are already forever condemned, yet they are allowed to roam this world freely until that time comes. Look at what they said to Jesus in Mat 8:29, “And they cried out, saying, 'What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?'"
Demons have no hope; humans do. God became a human to redeem humans (1 Tim 3:16). God made man in His image, not demons. This is the only chance humans have to be saved. There is no more preaching unto salvation after you physically die (Heb 9:27). The sentence will then be given and carried out (Mat 25:41).
As a believer, you know you have hope in the Lord. Nevertheless, do not preach to others that God will not judge to hell those who have already been judged because they have refused so great a salvation in this life. Ez 33:6 tells us, "'But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman's hand.'"
I was reading Psalm 103:8-9 the Lord is merciful and gracious,slow to anger, and plentious in mercy.He will not always punish,neither will He keep His anger for ever.When I read that and 1 Tim 4:10 I begin to love God even more.
Patrick, the Psalms were written by David, the king of Israel. Jesus was born out of his lineage. Like David, believers are the children of God and God is their Father. David sinned; yes. The LORD disciplines those that are His children (Heb 12:6). The Bible says there are those who are NOT His children (1 John 3:10); they are under His wrath. God destroyed the world with a flood, destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, slew all the wicked in the battles between His chosen and those of the Adversary. The same principle is in effect today.
The reason Jesus didn't come into the world to judge it, but to save it (John 12:47), is because THE WORLD WAS/IS CONDEMNED ALREADY (John 3:18). If you read and understand John 12:47, make sure you read vs. 48, too.
When believers are raised holy and immortal, they will no longer have sin or need for discipline. While God knows who are yet to be born again (before they physically die), His grace and mercy is ever present. When the Day of Judgment comes (after our physical death), the age of grace and mercy will have ended toward those who are not His children. This is what 1 Tim 3:10 means.
God has given ALL MEN the same opportunity for salvation. He is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34) in regard to His provisional sacrifice. Those who believe make His sacrifice valid/effective; those who do not believe nullify it (Gal 2:21; Heb 6:4-6). I pray you understand unto the glory of God.
It is wrong to assume that death ends all possibility of being saved for the wicked. That is unscriptural heresy. Judgment will bring about the largest salvation of humanity in the history of the world. In Isaiah 57:1 we learn that, "THE RIGHTEOUS PERISH...." So is that the final destination of "the RIGHTEOUS? I think not.
The broad way leads to DESTRUCTION. The word "destruction" is is derived from the Greek word "apollumi" which means to DESTROY, LOSE, PERISH. And Jesus plainly (I say plainly to all those who have an ear to hear) told us that His purpose in coming for His Father (I John 4:14) is stated: "For the Son of Man is come to SAVE THAT WHICH IS LOST [Gk: 'appolumi'] (Matt. 18:11). There it is. Jesus came to save all those who are 'appolumi,' which is most of humanity. Of course most Christians believe that He either LIED, or that He is INCAPABLE, or worse, DOESN'T WANT to save those who are 'appolumi'--LOST.
Ya know, we could put those two Scritures closer together and then it would make perfect sense, but OH how Christian zealots hate to put Scriptures together. They call it "taking Scripture out of CONTEXT). But as I really don't care what unscriptural Christians think, here goes:
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to DESTRUCTION [but]...the Son of Man is come TO SAVE that which is LOST [by foolishly going in at the broad gate and are now, appolumi" (Matt. 7:13 & 18:11). There are literally hundreds more Scriptures which prove this teaching of the salvation of all.
L Ray Smith
Deborah, Don’t go trying to split verses up again to teach lies, the rest of Isa 57:1 states, “and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be SPARED from evil.”
Jesus said, “Whoever believes in Him is NOT condemned, but whoever does NOT believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.” (John 3:18)
Jesus came to save the lost, but not all will be saved. This is evident in John 12:47-48 “As for the person who hears My words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.” The world was already condemned! Let’s go on: “There is a judge for the one who REJECTS Me and does NOT accept My words; that very word which I spoke will CONDEMN [reject, condemn] him at the last day.” How is it that Rom 8:1 states clearly, “Therefore, there is NOW NO CONDEMNATION for those who are IN Christ Jesus”?
Once again, you like to piece-meal the scriptures. Let’s read about the narrow DOOR/GATE and broad ROAD: Luke 13:23-24 “Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a FEW people going to be SAVED?" He said to them, “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door/gate, because many, I tell you, will TRY to enter and WILL NOT BE ABLE TO.” Mat 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate/door. For WIDE IS THE GATE and BROAD IS THE ROAD THAT LEADS TO DESTRUCTION, and MANY ENTER THROUGH IT.”
John 10:7-10 “Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate/door for the SHEEP. All who ever came before Me were thieves and robbers, but the SHEEP DID NOT LISTEN TO THEM. I am the gate/door; whoever enters through Me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.” Do you believe ALL are sheep? Jesus separates the sheep from the goats at the Judgment. The sheep go to His right and the goats to His left. Both destinations are everlasting.
L Ray Smith is a thief and robber, and I will NOT LISTEN TO HIM. If you listen to him, you are on the broad road that leads to destruction. Your blood will not be on my hand (Ez 33:6).
Arcturus 10 hours ago
"May the Love of Christ, the Annointing of the Father God, that is LOVE, bless us all and always." Amen.
Arcturus, I did not post your referenced link, for I stand firmly agains Calivinistic doctrine. Jesus died for the whole world (1 Tim 4:10) and ALL will be drawn by the Holy Spirit (John 12:32); those who will choose to enter into that Covenant relationship with Him (Rom 6:16) are saved now and forever.
At least you're not a Universalist, and for that I am thankful.
Dear Carrie
You are correct to deduce that I am not a Universalist.
Neither am I a Calvinist, nor any such title of which there are over 3 thousand in divided against itself Christendom. I do not belong to any denomination!
My house is not a house made with human hands, mortal ideas or religious set ups.
The body of Christ is NOT human-made. I am glad you’d agree.
My Avatar, Arcturus, is also as I am, and is likewise, neither a Calvinist nor any other name man gives to set up idols of the limitation!
I am a human being, housing the conception of the Spirit of Christ within, that is the Temple of the living God, who creates, you and I, all and one.
God is ONE. Behold, Oh Israel the Lord your God IS ONE.
Fondest love to you in your inspired efforts to speak, think and worship the Creator God within you.
God is love ~ I believe it, and that is Love.
Blessings
Deborah
Wow, I've got two Deborah's here...one signes L Ray Smith, the other is Arcturus. So, to the Deborah that is Arcturus, praise God! I checked out the link and I suspected the pastor was 'reformed' (Calivinist), so I googled to confirm. I'm relieved you are of the Temple of the living God; you are His temple. AMEN, God is ONE! Oh Israel the Lord your God IS ONE! Hallelujah!!!!
Dear Carrie.
Deborah, quoted, L Ray Smith ~ is the Deborah that I am.
The ghost like appearing in this Thread, both as Arcturus and Deborah can be said to be as wind blowing where it wants to, not to startle, offend, provoke contend nor oppose you.
Just blowing through to Bless you.
I am thrilled that you celebrate the Glory of the Lord in whom we live and have our being.
Your Joy is contagious and a gift of His Blessing.
May the Light, that is the Christ in you, continue to increase, as His Kingdom dawns within.
Deborah aka Arcturus.
Boy, all this multiple personality stuff is really very interesting, Deborah. You cannot follow L Ray Smith and "bless me" with flattering words that 'sound like' Light; for that 'blessing' I must ask the LORD to rebuke (Jude 1:9).
How can you believe in a false doctrine of Universal Salvation (L Ray Smith), then lie telling me you're NOT a Universalist? Then, you claim that God is ONE? Oh yea, James 2:19 "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder."
Now, Hell NO believes Jesus is created and is not God. Who do YOU say Jesus is? Do YOU claim to be saved? Or do you believe you will be? You're stating that "'Arcturus' and 'Deborah' can be said to be as wind blowing where it wants to" as though you are filled with the Holy Spirit. Are you? Do you claim to be?
Wild ~ really wild. I dare not risk blaspheming the Holy Spirit, but I know that if you claim something is Holy within you that is not, you will be guilty of the unforgivable sin, Deborah aka Arcturus. I leave YOU in the Hand of God.
I think I may have just experienced Acts 16:17-18? "This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, "These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved." She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit, "In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!" At that moment the spirit left her." Wow.
I would love to know where you got your translation of the word geenna???? Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather FEAR HIM which is able to DESTROY BOTH SOUL and BODY in HELL (geenna-Lake of Fire) the ancient greek dictionary DOES NOT say lake of fire or wikipedia in all reality the only thing i can find on the word points to a word [GEHINNOM] which point to a place [Valley of Hinnom]or the {Valle of the Sons of Hinnom] which is a place where they sacrificed pepole or burned there dead....untill not to long ago the word come to mean hell,lake of fire,ect.my point is plesae share where you have found you ancient translation at that was translated passede 1800 or so because to me thats about that time that word started meaning hell, fire, lakes of fire, ect.
Dome:
1067 géhenna (a transliteration of the Hebrew term, Gêhinn?m, "the valley of Hinnom") – Gehenna, i.e. hell (also referred to as the "lake of fire" in Revelation).
Mt 5:22 & 5:29, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15 and 23:33; M'r 9:43, 9:45 and 9:47; Lu 12:5; Jas 3:6. Lake of Fire: Mat 25:41; Rev 19:20; 20:10, 14-15 and 21:8.
Feel free to look up every passage that uses 'gehenna' and see what you will see..."Fires of hell [gehenna]", etc.
I only have one small comment. If you are going to use Ephesians 2:8 to make a point then please use the whole verse and not half of it! Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— You tried to use this verse saying it is by faith men are saved, and this is true. But! the rest of the verse says.. and this is not of yourselves. Which is "Jesus's Faith" and not yours!It is a gift from God! Lest any man should boast!
marklbs, if you can understand the entirety of not only Eph 2:8, but how vs. 9 explains it, "not from yourselves" or "not of yourselves" (it is the gift of God), "not of works, lest any man should boast" ~ it means we are not saved by our works.
Universalists need to understand that they preach salvation by works and purification through the lake of fire based on their inadequate works. If man is saved by faith as a gift of God, the Lake of Fire for purification is not relevant.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of Christ (Rom 2:17). Jesus said in John 12:32 He would draw ALL men unto Himself, if He is lifted up (which He was). Therefore, all are given the drawing, and if given the drawing, given the faith and if given the faith and s/he still rejects the Word of Christ and His gift of salvation by faith, s/he is none of His. After physical death, there is no more hope for salvation (Heb 9:27). Period.
That is not ture about Universalist. I have never heard or read anything about them believing they are saved by their works. In fact, they teach it is not by mans faith or works they are saved, but only the Faith of Christ and the Grace of God that all are saved. Heb 9:27 does not say after death there is no more hope for salvation. It says it is for man to die once then be judged. Man will be judged by their works and their works will decide their just reward. 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. I don't place a title on my belief. Universalist, Traditional Christian etc. I believe in Christ. If anyone asks me what denomination I am I will say I believe in Christ. I won't put in or take out words of scripture. Do I think men need to believe and have faith in Christ! YES! Do I believe that man freewill decides if he goes to heaven or not? NO! Do I believe the fires of hell are literal? NO! Do I believe that sinners will suffer for eternity because they deserved it? Absoletly NOT!
Carrie, I appreciate your concern. As someone who onced believed as you, I would have probably done the same. However, my eyes have since been opened. Not only by L. Ray Smith, as he is not the only, but by Gerry Beauchemin, Jackson Baer, and so many others. The literature online is overwhelming. God will not torture his creation in a fictional hell forever.
marklbs, the passage you quoted has nothing to do with humans being tried by fire, but their works. And those who are saved are those standing on the Rock of their salvation, Jesus Christ. Their works will be rewarded or burned up, for whatever is of Christ will last. Truly, it is the works Christ does through us that are rewarded, no work that we do of ourselves.
Free will and free choice are two different things. Man has a choice, and WILL serve one Master or the other. He cannot serve any master.
It is appointed unto man once to die, then comes judgment, not salvation. To assume salvation comes through judgment is your grave mistake. This judgment after death is speaking of sentencing and the Bible says it is forever and ever. If hell is not forever, then neither is heaven. If hell is not eternal, than neither is life. If hell is not everlasting, than neither is God.
ShirleyCoralineJones, 2 Tim 4:3-4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires [L. Ray Smith, Gerry Beauchemin and Jackson Baer are not in my Bible] and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths." If sound doctrine was so flowery, no one would have to 'endure' it or turn away from it.
Patrick, I'm not posting your last comment either, because you're repeating things we've already covered. Let's get the interpretation of 1 Pet 4:6 straightened out. You think it means Jesus went to preach to the dead to give them life ~ WRONG. Study the Greek. "For this is the reason [accountability after death - read vs. 5] the gospel was preached [past tense] even to those who are now dead [they were alive at the time the gospel was preached to them and have since died], so that they might be judged according to MEN in regard to the body [life in the flesh], but live [after death - present tense] according to God in regard to the spirit [because they believed the gospel preached to them before they died]."
no body Level 5 Commenter 2 years ago
Dear God in heaven use this hub in Your power. Turn these people that you love to You from following one man. Use someone to reach them before it is too late even if it is not us only use someone Lord. Soften their hearts and ready their minds for you. And I pray this in the powerful name of your Son Christ Jesus. Amen